Can a popular novel be badly written?

[Anke Wehner]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

The bigger question is why the mass audience is style and tone deaf, and finds them readable.

Maybe because they only read very few books, so they don't have much to compare the writing with - it's just what a book is like.

Somehow I'm reminded of Harry Potter fans who thought that Rowling was an UTTER GENIUS for inventing all those creatures like house elves and hippogriffs and centaurs, or of people who thought the flying mountains in Avatar were amazingly original, rather than a fantasy staple...

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by Anke Wehner

Maybe because they only read very few books, so they don't have much to compare the writing with - it's just what a book is like.

Somehow I'm reminded of Harry Potter fans who thought that Rowling was an UTTER GENIUS for inventing al those creatures like house elves and hippogriffs and centaurs, or of people who thought the flying mountains in Avatar were amasingly original, rather than a fantasy staple...

I think that is because general non-readers have no idea what's going on - so they are impressed with "light work." Do you remember the first book that got you going? It probably wasn't that good, either.

My husband and I had an “argument” last night - he was surprised that I told him he liked fantasy.
Him: “No I don’t!”
Me: “What about Supernatural and Heros?” Those are both considered Urban Fantasy.”
Him: “I would consider Supernatural to be horror, not fantasy! And now what? You’re going to tell me that Battleship Galactica is fantasy, too?”
Me: “No, that would be Sci-Fi.”
Him: grumble, grumble, grumble - turn the tv

[Anke Wehner]

My mother claims the book that got me into reading was Terry Brooks' Hook, which she got after I enjoyed the movie.

Eh. I don't get the snobbery about genres some people do. I remember some guy showing up on the alt.fan.pratchett newsgroup to argue that Discworld books were not actually fantasy, but instead satire, as if genreas were mutually exclusive. He said he couldn't admit to his friends he was reading fantasy.

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by HarryT

David Weber is a great story-teller but, IMHO, a poor writer. He picks a few phrases and uses them over and over again. Eg, Honor Harrington, never merely speaks, she always "speaks in a soprano voice". She never "folds her arms", but "folds her arms under her breasts" (where else is she going to fold them? ). And one which, I must admit, had me in fits of giggles, she is "a multi-millionaire, several times over" .

A dalek 'giggling'



- now that's an image that'll remain in my brain cell for a while

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Anke Wehner

Maybe because they only read very few books, so they don't have much to compare the writing with - it's just what a book is like.

Entirely possible. Awareness and appreciation of style comes from experience. If you lack it...

Somehow I'm reminded of Harry Potter fans who thought that Rowling was an UTTER GENIUS for inventing all those creatures like house elves and hippogriffs and centaurs, or of people who thought the flying mountains in Avatar were amazingly original, rather than a fantasy staple...

I saw that years ago from kids who raved that Piers Anthony was the greatest fantasy writer ever. Save that they'd read little else, and had nothing to compare against.

(And there were the on the folks who read Terry Brooks' "Shanarra" series, and thought Tolkien ripped him off in LoTR. Er, savvy copyright date? Tolkien started writing what became LoTR before Brooks was born...)
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Anke Wehner

Eh. I don't get the snobbery about genres some people do. I remember some guy showing up on the alt.fan.pratchett newsgroup to argue that Discworld books were not actually fantasy, but instead satire, as if genreas were mutually exclusive. He said he couldn't admit to his friends he was reading fantasy.

Did he say why he couldn't make the admission?

Genre snobbery is pervasive, and stems from misplaced notions of status. "Ewww! You read that? Boy, you're a tasteless dweeb, and I'm better than you!"

There are genres I'm simply not interested in, like Horror - the point of Horror is to scare you, and that's not a feeling I enjoy or seek to deliberately provoke - but I don't look down upon it. I assume that like everything else in literature, there are good and bad examples of the form, and the bad ones are dreadful and the good ones very good indeed.

The trick is thinking through your judgments, and being able to say why something didn't work for you in terms someone else will at least grasp, even if they don't agree.
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Dennis

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Did he say why he couldn't make the admission?

Genre snobbery is pervasive, and stems from misplaced notions of status. "Ewww! You read that? Boy, you're a tasteless dweeb, and I'm better than you!"

There are genres I'm simply not interested in, like Horror - the point of Horror is to scare you, and that's not a feeling I enjoy or seek to deliberately provoke - but I don't look down upon it. I assume that like everything else in literature, there are good and bad examples of the form, and the bad ones are dreadful and the good ones very good indeed.

The trick is thinking through your judgments, and being able to say why something didn't work for you in terms someone else will at least grasp, even if they don't agree.
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Dennis

That kind of snobbery is quite normal, as I've been told. I'm a part of a book club in which almost every member can point to moments like that.

[Anke Wehner]

He said they'd laugh about him, if I remember correctly.

With fantasy in particular sometimes I get the impression there are people who think each and every fantasy story must be a cookie-cutter copy of LotR, so anything which is not a quest to save the world with a magic artifact at the centre must be something that is not fantasy.

I don't know, some people just try to redefine reality rather than change their assummptions. People start with the idea of "Genre X is stupid. This book is not stupid, so it can't be genre X, because it is inconceivable that my assumption is wrong." (I see that in other fields, too. "All women are stupid about maths/tech. If a woman is good in those fields, she is not a counter-example. She must have some hormone imbalance that gave her a male brain.")

I gravitate to fantasy and science fiction for various reasons, including that I like fanciful escapism. And I avoid romance because I assume that the stories are about how a woman's life revolves around hooking up with a man, which just doesn't interest me.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by Anke Wehner

I don't know, some people just try to redefine reality rather than change their assummptions. People start with the idea of "Genre X is stupid. This book is not stupid, so it can't be genre X, because it is inconceivable that my assumption is wrong." (I see that in other fields, too. "All women are stupid about maths/tech. If a woman is good in those fields, she is not a counter-example. She must have some hormone imbalance that gave her a male brain.")

It's called the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, related to the "moving the goalposts" fallacy

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

That kind of snobbery is quite normal, as I've been told. I'm a part of a book club in which almost every member can point to moments like that.

Yeah, it is. SF/fantasy was looked down upon for a long time. It used to be a sore point among the folks I hung out with that the New York Times has a case of it, and SF was unlikely to be reviewed in the NYT Book Review, while Mysteries fared far better.

The NYT is better now (and it's hard to hold the line when SF may hit the NYT Bestseller list), but for some time their designated SF reviewer was Gerald Jonas. He means well, likes the genre, and has written it himself, but from my POV had an unerring tendency to miss the point of what he read.

It made me wonder if no reviews at all might be better than reviews that Didn't Get It.
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Anke Wehner

He said they'd laugh about him, if I remember correctly.

Sounds like he needs to get a different set of friends.

With fantasy in particular sometimes I get the impression there are people who think each and every fantasy story must be a cookie-cutter copy of LotR, so anything which is not a quest to save the world with a magic artifact at the centre must be something that is not fantasy.

SF got criticized as "Crazy Buck Rogers Stuff" because of similar misplaced notions. It reflects a rather tragic ignorance of the subject matter.

I don't know, some people just try to redefine reality rather than change their assummptions. People start with the idea of "Genre X is stupid. This book is not stupid, so it can't be genre X, because it is inconceivable that my assumption is wrong." (I see that in other fields, too. "All women are stupid about maths/tech. If a woman is good in those fields, she is not a counter-example. She must have some hormone imbalance that gave her a male brain.")

An awful lot of things like that become Religious Arguments. They have nothing to do with religion per se, but the underlying impulses are gut level things that tend to live in the same place as religious beliefs, and are just as touchy to question. Questions of the beliefs tend to be interpreted as personal attacks on the holder of the beliefs, and responded to accordingly.

I gravitate to fantasy and science fiction for various reasons, including that I like fanciful escapism. And I avoid romance because I assume that the stories are about how a woman's life revolves around hooking up with a man, which just doesn't interest me.

Romance is of little interest to me, either, but I'm male and not part of the target audience. It is the fastest growing genre, and I'm increasingly convinced that the majority of the reading market in the US is female.
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Dennis

[MrsJoseph]

I'd rather no reviews than Didn't Get It reviews. I read mostly fantasy - so I'd rather figure it out for myself.

[gmw]

So this thread has woken back up again. In that case I would like to contrast two recent posts:

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

[...] Genre snobbery is pervasive, and stems from misplaced notions of status. "Ewww! You read that? Boy, you're a tasteless dweeb, and I'm better than you!" [...]

The trick is thinking through your judgments, and being able to say why something didn't work for you in terms someone else will at least grasp, even if they don't agree. [...]

But earlier you said this:

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

[...] The bigger question is why the mass audience is style and tone deaf, and finds them readable.

It seems to me that there is not just a "Genre snobbery" but a popularity snobbery. "Ewww! If so many people like that it must be for the masses and so can't possibly be good."

To me the rejection of the taste of the masses is like harking back to the times when voting was only offered to landed gentry, never to the poor, idiots or women.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by gmw

It seems to me that there is not just a "Genre snobbery" but a popularity snobbery. "Ewww! If so many people like that it must be for the masses and so can't possibly be good."

To me the rejection of the taste of the masses is like harking back to the times when voting was only offered to landed gentry, never to the poor, idiots or women.

Who is rejecting the taste of the masses?

The original question was "Can a popular novel be badly written?" and the answer is "It certainly can be", with various examples held up as examples.

But it doesn't mean that just because it's popular it's poorly written. I suspect we could come up with counter examples of best sellers that were well written indeed.

The issue is that popularity has no observable connection with the quality of the prose, and the fact that it's well written isn't why it's popular, even if it is well written.

It might be more valuable to examine why popular works commonly considered poorly written are popular. What itch do they scratch? What makes them popular, if it isn't the writing?
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Dennis

[wodin]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

It might be more valuable to examine why popular works commonly considered poorly written are popular. What itch do they scratch? What makes them popular, if it isn't the writing?
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Dennis

Anyone who can do that and can put two words together to form a paragraph, even if not a grammatically correct on, would be very rich indeed.