ebook piracy numbers

[wgrimm]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I don't see the relevance of that myself. Unlike paper books, e-books do not deteriorate with time, and they use no physical storage space. For me personally, they are therefore worth more than paper books.

My personal experience, however, has been that e-books are generally cheaper than paper books. Perhaps you're buying from the wrong stores?

Hmmmm...When was the last time a reseller came to my house and took away my paper book because of squabbles with the publisher? This happened recently to ereader/Fictionwise customers. And why- if I bought it- can't I resell that e-book? E-books are not at all the equivalent of paper books. Production costs are far less- no paper or ink to buy, no shipping costs, etc. So they should be priced accordingly- in other words, for much less.

And e-books do not deteriorate with time, but they have far more serious issues. For example, take a DRMd e-bookm in a particular format. What happens when a reader no longer has the device to read that format? What happens if you can't buy the device any more? I have many paperback books in my basement from the 40s and 50s, and they may have deteriorated slightly, but are still extremely readable.

And no, e-books are not necessarily cheaper, either, although they should be. I needed a certain book on scripting, and looked at Amazon and other resellers- the price was a minimum $36. Okay, had it been reasonably priced, say $10, I would have bought it in e-book form. I saw the paper at Borders for $32, but hey- I was a little pissed off, so I went all the way downtown and borrowed it from the main local library. For FREE! Sorry publishers- you lost a sale.

A huge wave is coming, and will wash over many publishers. I have been taking classes again this summer, and one of my accounting texts was $210! Wait till people seriuosly start challenging the textbook publishers on the price issue, and demanding reasonably priced ebook versions of texts.

[Ben Thornton]

Partly, the relative value thing depends on what your reading habits are. If, like me, you read most books once, then future ebook issues (format changes etc.) aren't an issue for those. If you read fewer books lots of times, as I understand some people do, then I guess it's more of an issue.

There's no "right answer", but for many people, I suspect that they read most books once and never look at them again, so an ebook suits them just fine, so long as they can read it this time around.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by wgrimm

Hmmmm...When was the last time a reseller came to my house and took away my paper book because of squabbles with the publisher? This happened recently to ereader/Fictionwise customers.

No, you are distorting the facts. All that was lost was the ability to re-download the book, and no bookstore guarantees to store the book eternally for you. Once you've bought the book it's your responsibility to download it and keep it safe.

And why- if I bought it- can't I resell that e-book?

For the same reason that you can't re-sell a track that you download from iTunes; the practical aspect of it and also the fact that it would be a violation of copyright law. When you re-sell a paper book, you are selling the same book that you bought. If you were to re-sell an e-book you would, by definition, be making an unauthorised copy of it in the process, and that would be a copyright violation.

I have been taking classes again this summer, and one of my accounting texts was $210! Wait till people seriuosly start challenging the textbook publishers on the price issue, and demanding reasonably priced ebook versions of texts.

Textbooks are expensive because of high production costs and an extremely restricted market. That is true regardless of whether they are on paper or electronic. I'm afraid your accounting textbook is never going to be a $10 ebook.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

also the fact that it would be a violation of copyright law.

Which is absolute BS.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by HarryT

...For the same reason that you can't re-sell a track that you download from iTunes; ...the fact that it would be a violation of copyright law. When you re-sell a paper book, you are selling the same book that you bought. If you were to re-sell an e-book you would, by definition, be making an unauthorised copy of it in the process, and that would be a copyright violation...

This is true only if you keep a copy of the tune or e-book for yourself. If you have to crack DRM to do so, that would be probably be illegal (it's never been tested in court as far as I know) but wouldn't be an actual copyright violation. Of course, the question remains; do you actually own an e-book or only a license to use it (again untested in the courts afaik)?

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

Of course, the question remains; do you actually own an e-book or only a license to use it (again untested in the courts afaik)?

It's been answered in US courts regarding software. eBooks are essentially software, after all.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Ben Thornton

Partly, the relative value thing depends on what your reading habits are. If, like me, you read most books once, then future ebook issues (format changes etc.) aren't an issue for those. If you read fewer books lots of times, as I understand some people do, then I guess it's more of an issue.

It also depends on if you lend books to friend or if you need to check things in the book. I read mostly science fiction ,I am interested in the science fiction field, I go to conventions and I discus books with friends. For that you need a book collection and you will need to check things in read book even if you do not re-read them.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

It's been answered in US courts regarding software. eBooks are essentially software, after all.

I'm not so sure about that. A file is just stored data. Software is a file or collective files that perform a function.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Which is absolute BS.

Thank you for your thoughtful and considered opinion - it's always good to hear carefully reasoned arguments.

However, to counter your cogent summary, I would argue that any sale must, by its very nature, involve making an unauthorised copy, and hence be a violation of copyright law.

[Barcey]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, you are distorting the facts. All that was lost was the ability to re-download the book, and no bookstore guarantees to store the book eternally for you. Once you've bought the book it's your responsibility to download it and keep it safe.
....

Minor correction. The ebooks were removed from the devices as well.

An Amazon spokesman, Drew Herdener, said in an e-mail message that the books were added to the Kindle store by a company that did not have rights to them, using a self-service function. “When we were notified of this by the rights holder, we removed the illegal copies from our systems and from customers’ devices, and refunded customers,” he said.

Amazon sold books without the rights and tried to hit the undo key. You can't do that. The deed was done.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Barcey

Minor correction. The ebooks were removed from the devices as well.

We were not talking about Amazon, but about Fictionwise. They were forced to remove from customers' bookshelves the books that they could no longer sell due to a dispute with the publishers. This had no impact upon those copies of the books that the purchaser had already downloaded.

[wgwood]

Originally Posted by HarryT

If you were to re-sell an e-book you would, by definition, be making an unauthorised copy of it in the process, and that would be a copyright violation.

So how does this apply to making backup copies of books that we purchase. Are these not "unauthorized copies" as well? If some of your 17,000 books are still under copyright, and you have them backed up in multiple locations, wouldn't that constitute massive copyright fraud?

Or, if the DRM is still intact and the book can only be read on an authorized device, is it ok to make backup copies?

I am new to this form of reading and I highly enjoy it, but I have backup copies of my ebooks in several locations as well. Am I violating the law?

Should I lock my door?

Regards,
Greg

[Barcey]

Originally Posted by HarryT

We were not talking about Amazon, but about Fictionwise. They were forced to remove from customers' bookshelves the books that they could no longer sell due to a dispute with the publishers. This had no impact upon those copies of the books that the purchaser had already downloaded.

My mistake. Fictionwise was a different situation but I don't believe they were forced to remove the books from the customer's bookshelves (books they had already purchased). I assumed that they were removed because of how their systems are designed (i.e. when they removed ebooks from the sales site it also removed them from bookshelves).

If you take DRM out of the picture I agree with you that the ebook could have the same or better perceived value then a paper copy. The production, distribution and overhead costs are all reduced though so I still expect them to be sold for less.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by HarryT

...I would argue that any sale must, by its very nature, involve making an unauthorised copy, and hence be a violation of copyright law.

Could you please go into some more detail? You flew by me on that one.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by wgwood

So how does this apply to making backup copies of books that we purchase. Are these not "unauthorized copies" as well? If some of your 17,000 books are still under copyright, and you have them backed up in multiple locations, wouldn't that constitute massive copyright fraud?

Or, if the DRM is still intact and the book can only be read on an authorized device, is it ok to make backup copies?

I am new to this form of reading and I highly enjoy it, but I have backup copies of my ebooks in several locations as well. Am I violating the law?

Should I lock my door?

Regards,
Greg

Depends on a lot of things starting with where you are since laws vary. In the US, you are allowed to make one back up copy. However, you are not allowed to circumvent DRM to make that copy. It's not likely that anyone will bother you for making more than one back up copy, even if it was necessary to circumvent DRM to do so, as long as no one can prove you weren't doing so for your own purposes, not for sharing and/or profit, and you were not using more than one copy at a time.

Technology has advanced faster than the legal system and, sadly, many of the laws that have been made were influenced by big money concerns, not what is fair. It will take the courts to sort things out. I refuse to buy e-books that have DRM so I'm not worried about getting in trouble for circumventing it, but I do keep more than one back up. Because of the ephemeral nature of e-files, it only makes sense to have more than one back up in more than one location.