Arizonan restrictive law backfires

[obs20]

I hope this helps.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by obs20

I hope this helps.

The source is hard to read, does it say FBI?

[obs20]

This link is from the City of Phoenix it shows the FBI data from 1970 through 2008


http://www.opportunitygreaterphoenix...rticle&id=5325

[obs20]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

The source is hard to read, does it say FBI?

Yes it does.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by obs20

This link is from the City of Phoenix it shows the FBI data from 1970 through 2008


http://www.opportunitygreaterphoenix...rticle&id=5325

I'd love to see that plotted along with demographic data, median income total population median age.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

By the way, last I checked the US doesn't put women in combat so out of intellectual curiosity and the chance to catch you in a lie, how did you manage it?

these are the women that were killed in combat since 9/11. I am now done with you

Afghanistan:



Marine Sgt. Jeannette L. Williams, 25, KC-130 crash in Pakistan mountains, Jan. 9, 2002

AF Staff Sgt. Anissa Shero, 31, loadmaster, MC-130H, crash on takeoff of Special Operations mission, June 12, 2002

AF 1st Lt. Tamara Archuleta, 23, co-pilot Pave Hawk helicopter, crashed while picking up two injured Afghan children, Mar. 23, 2003

Sgt. Maj. Barbaralien Banks, 41, Chinook crash, Apr. 6, married, one son, 19, Apr. 6, 2005

Spec. Chrystal Stout, 23, Chinook crash, Apr. 6, 2005

1st Lt. Laura M. Walker, 24, IED attack on Humvee, Aug. 18, 2005

Sgt. Wakkuna A. Jackson, 21, IED attack on convoy vehicle, Aug. 19, 2006

Reserve Sgt. 1st Class Merideth L. Howard, 52, suicide car bomb attack on Humvee, Sept. 8, 2006

Spc. Ciara Durkin, 30, gunshot wound, investigation in progress, Sept. 26, 2007

Sgt. Simone Robinson, 21, IED attack in Kabul on Feb. 28, single mother of two year-old daughter, Mar. 1, 2009

Navy Lt. Florence B. Choe, 35, killed by insurgent dressed as an Afghan soldier, Camp Shaheen, Mazar-e-Sharif, 3 year-old daughter, March 27, 2009

Air Force Lt. Roslyn L. Schulte, 25, IED hit on vehicle near Kabul, May 20, 2009

Air Force Senior Airman Ashton L.M. Goodman, 21, IED hit on vehicle near Bagram AFB, May 26, 2009

Staff Sgt. Tara J. Smith, 33, non-combat related incident under investigation, mother of two boys, 8 and 6, August 4, 2009.

Sgt. Eduviges G. Wolf, 24, RPG attack on vehicle, wife and mother of two girls, ages 3 and 1, October 22, 2009.
Iraq:


Pfc. Lori Ann Piestewa, 23, captured, died in captivity, Mar. 23, 2003, two children, 4 and 3, Mar. 23, 2003

Sgt. Melissa Valles, 26, non-combat gunshot wound to abdomen, cause unknown, July 10, 2003

Spc. Alyssa Renee Peterson, 27, gunshot wound to head, cause unknown, Sept. 15, 2003

Pfc. Analaura Esparza Gutierrez, 21, RPG attack on supply vehicle, Oct. 1, 2003

Spc. Tamarra J. Ramos, 24, non-combat injuries, armor medical company, Oct. 1, 2003

Pfc. Rachel Bosveld, 19, MP, attack on Baghdad police station, Oct. 26, 2003

Pfc. Karina Sotelo Lau, 20, Chinook crash, under fire, Nov. 2, 2003

Spc. Frances M. Vega, 20, Chinook crash, under fire, Nov. 2, 2003

Chief Warrant Officer Sharon T. Swartworth, 43, CWO, JAG Corps, Blackhawk downed under fire, Nov. 7, 2003

Sgt. Linda C. Jiminez, injuries following a fall in Baghdad, Nov. 8, 2003

Staff Sgt. Kimberley Voelz, 27, explosive ordnance disposal expert, bomb exploded, died in soldier husband's arms, Dec. 14, 2003

Capt. Kimberly Hampton, 27, helicopter pilot, downed under fire, Jan. 4, 2004

Sgt. Keicia M. Hines, 27, MP, struck by vehicle, Jan. 14, 2004

Pfc. Holly Jeanne McGeogh, 19, vehicle hit by IED, Jan. 31, 2004

Pfc. Nichole M. Frye, 19, Civil Affairs Reservist, vehicle hit by IED, Feb. 16, 2004

Capt. Gussie Jones, 41,non-combat death (surgical nurse, possible heart attack), Mar. 7, 2004

Spc. Tyanna Avery-Felder, 22, shrapnel wounds, Apr. 4, 2004

Spc. Michelle Witmer, 20, Wisconsin NG MP, killed by small arms attack (one of three sisters in the Army), Apr. 9, 2004

Spc. Isela Rubalcava, 25, hit by mortar round to Stryker brigade, May 8, 2004

Pfc. Leslie D. Jackson, 18,vehicle hit by IED, May 20, 2004

Pfc. Melissa J. Hobart, 22, collapsed while on guard duty, mother of 3 year-old, June 6, 2004

Spc. Julie R. Hickey, 20, Civil Affairs Reservist, died in Germany after complications from non-combat related illness, July 4, 2004

Sgt. Linda Terango-Griess, Ordnance Company Reservist, 33, vehicle hit by IED, July 11, 2004

Sgt. Tatjana Reed, 34, vehicle hit by IED, July 22, 2004

Sgt. Shawna L. Morrison, 26, IL NG, 26, hit by shrapnel when barracks mortared, Sept. 5, 2004

Spc. Jessica L. Cawvey, 21, vehicle hit by mortar, single mother of 6 year-old, Oct. 6, 2004

Sgt. Pamela Osbourne, 38, three children, ages 9 t0 19, Oct. 11, 2004

Sgt. Cari Anne Gasiewicz, 28, convoy vehicle hit by grenade, Dec. 4, 2004

Sgt. Tina S. Time, 22, vehicle accident, Dec. 13, 2004

Sgt. Jessica M. Housby, 23, IL NG, hit by IED near truck convoy, Feb. 9, 2005

Spc. Katrina L. Bell-Johnson, 32, truck overturned, cause unknown, mother of 1 year-old, Feb. 16, 2005

Spc. Adrianna Salem, 21, vehicle rolled over, unknown cause, Feb. 21, 2005

Pfc. Sam W. Huff, 18, IED attack on Humvee, April 18, 2005

Spc. Aleina Ramirez Gonzales, 33, Puerto Rico, April 15, mortar attack on forward operating base, Apr. 29, 2005

Spc. Lizbeth Robles, 31, vehicle accident, Mar. 1, 2005

Spc. Carrie L. French, 19, bomb hit on convoy, June 5, 2005

Marine Lance Cpl. Holly Charette, 21, attack on truck convoy in Fallujah, June 23, 2005

Navy Petty Officer 1st Class Regina Clark, 43, 1 18 year-old son, Fallujah attack on truck convoy, June 23, 2005

Marine Cpl. Ramona Valdez, 20, Fallujah attack on truck convoy, June 23, 2005

Staff Sgt. Tricia L. Jameson, 34, medical specialist, Army NG, IED explosion while responding to a casualty incident, July 14, 2005

Pfc. LaVena L. Johnson, 19, non-combat related injuries, July 19, 2005

Spec. Toccara Green, 23, IED explosion, Aug. 14, 2005

Airman 1st Class Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 21, IED explosion, Sept. 28, 2005

1st Lt. Debra A. Banaszak, 35, non-combat related injuries, Oct. 28, 2005

Sgt. Julia V. Atkins, 22,IED attack near Humvee, Dec. 10, 2005

Sgt. Regina C. Reali, 25, IED attack, Dec. 23, 2005

Sgt. Myla L. Maravillosa, 24, RPG attack on Humvee, Dec. 24, 2005

1st Lt. Jaime L. Campbell, 25, helicopter crash, Jan. 7, 2006

AF Senior Airman Alecia S. Good, 28, Gulf of Aden helicopter collision, Feb. 17, 2006

Pvt. First Class Tina M. Priest, 20, gunshot wound to the chest, unknown cause, Mar. 1, 2006

Pfc. Amy Duerksen, 19, of injuries suffered in Iraq, Mar. 11, 2006

Spc. Amanda Pinson, 21, mortar attack while waiting for bus transport, Mar. 16, 2006

Marine Lance Cpl. Juana Navarro Arellano, 24, of wounds received in Iraq, April 8 , 2006

Navy Petty Officer 2nd Class Jaime S. Jaenke, 29, Humvee struck by IED, Iraq, mother of 9 year old girl June 5, 2006

Pfc. Hannah L. Gunterman, 20, mother of a 2 year-old boy, killed by a fellow soldier in a vehicle accident in Taji, Iraq, Sept. 4, 2006

2nd Lt. J. T. Perez, 23, IED explosion near Humvee in Al Kifl, Iraq, Sept. 12, 2006

Sgt. Jennifer M. Hartman, 21, suicide bomber attack on West Baghdad Substation, Sept. 14, 2006

1st Lt. Ashley (Henderson) Huff, 23, suicide attack on convoy, near her Humvee, Sept. 19, 2006

Sgt. Jeannette T. Dunn, 44, of non-combat related injuries, Nov. 26, 2006

Maj. Megan McClung, USMC, 34, IED attack near Ramadi in the Anbar province, Iraq, Dec. 6, 2006

Maj. Gloria D. Davis, 47, gunshot wound in a non-combat related incident, Dec. 12, 2006

Senior Airman Elizabeth A. Loncki, 23, ordnance disposal team targeted by car bomb, Jan. 7, 2007

Command Sgt. Maj. Marilyn L. Gabbard, 46, Black Hawk helicopter crash near Baghdad, Jan. 20, 2007

Spc. Carla J. Stewart, 37, transportation convoy vehicle rollover, Jan. 30, 2007

Marine Cpl. Jennifer M. Parcell, 20, female suicide bomber attack at checkpoint in Anbar province, Iraq, Feb. 7, 2007

Marine Capt. Jennifer J. Harris, 28, helicopter crash due to enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq, Feb. 7, 2007

Sgt. Ashly L. Moyer, 21, IED detonation near her MP vehicle, Mar. 3, 2007

Pfc. Katie M. Soenksen, 19, IED detonation near her MP vehicle, May 2, 2007

Spc. Karen Clifton, 22, RPG attack on her vehicle, near Baghdad, June 21, 2007

Sgt. Trista L. Moretti, 27, indirect fire during an insurgent attack, June 25, 2007

Spec. Michelle R. Ring, 24, mother of two young boys, mortar fire attack in Baghdad, July 5, 2007

Capt. Maria I. Ortiz, 40, indirect fire attack in Baghdad, July 10, 2007

Staff Sgt. Alicia A. Birchett, 29, non-combat related accident in Baghdad, mother of 3 young boys, Aug. 9, 2007

Sgt. Princess C. Samuels, 22, indirect fire near Taji, Iraq, Aug. 15, 2007

Spc. Zandra T. Worthy-Walker, 28, indirect fire near Taji, Iraq, Aug. 15, 2007

Spc. Kamisha J. Block, 20, non-combat "friendly fire" incident, MP battalion in Iraq, Aug. 16, 2007

Spc. Marisol Heredia, 19, injuries suffered from a non-combat related incident, July 18 in Baghdad, Sept. 7, 2007

Capt. (Dr.) Roselle M. Hoffmaster, 32, Kirkuk, Iraq, non-combat related incident under investigation, Sept. 20, 2007

Spc. Rachel L. Hugo, 24, IED and small arms attack on MP unit, Bayji, Iraq, Oct. 5, 2007

Staff Sgt. Lillian Clamens, 35, RPG attack near Baghdad, mother of 3 young children, Oct. 10, 2007

2nd Lt. Tracy L. Alger, 30, IED attack in Shubayshen, Iraq, Nov. 1, 2007, while serving in a forward support company (FSC) attached to the 3rd Battalion, 187th Infantry Regiment. (All soldiers in the war are "in harm's way," but Direct Ground Combat-collocated support units at the battalion level are required by DoD regulation to be all male.)

Staff Sgt. Carletta S. Davis, 34, IED attack in Tal Al-Dahab, Iraq, mother of three sons, Nov. 5. 2007

Spc. Keisha M. Morgan, 25, non-combat related cause under investigation, Feb. 22, 2008

Marine Lance Cpl. Casey Casanova, 22, IED attack in Iraq, May 2, 2008

Spc. Mary J. Jaenichen, 20, non-combat related injury that is under investigation, May 9, 2008

Cpl. Jessica A. Ellis, 24, IED attack on her medical vehicle, near Baghdad, Iraq, May 11, 2008

AF Tech Sgt. Jackie L. Larsen, 37, non-combat related natural causes following non-hostile action, Balad AFB, July 17, 2008

Pfc. Jennifer L. Cole, 34, non-combat related incident, under investigation, Bayji, Iraq, Aug. 2, 2008

Lance Cpl. Stacy Ann Dryden, 22, non-combat related incident under investigation, al-Asad Air Base, Iraq, Oct. 19, 2008

Spc. Jessica Y. Sarandrea, 22, mortar fire on forward operating base near Mosul, Mar. 3, 2009

Staff Sgt. Army C. Tirador, 29, non-combat incident near Kirkush, Nov. 4, 2009.

Pfc. Adriana Alvarez, 20, MP, injuries sustained supporting combat operations, Feb. 20, 2010.

CWO2 Billie Jean Grinder, 25, hard helicopter landing, Feb. 21, 2010.

Spc. Lakeshia M. Bailey, 23, vehicle rollover in Al Kut, Iraq, Mar. 8, 2010.

Pfc. Erin L. McLyman, 26, mortar attack on base, Balad, Iraq, Mar. 13, 2010.
Kuwait:


Reserve Sgt. Denise Lannaman, 46, non-combat-related incident at Camp Arifjan, Oct. 1, 2006

Pfc. Cwislyn K. Walter, 19, non-combat related, near Kuwait City, Feb. 19, 2009

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

these are the women that were killed in combat since 9/11. I am now done with you

How interesting. Did you read your own list?

Plane crash plane crash helicopter crash on takeoff. I see non combat related injuries listed a few times. I see IED. I see killed by fellow soldier in a vehicle accident. I see one killed when her barracks were mortared. This looks more like a list of the dead not a list of combat related deaths.

These all look like like people who died tragically but not from being placed in combat rather the horrors of war spilled over to where these people were serving.

[netseeker]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

the posession of legal ID is NOT intimidation. intimidation is being stopped at road blocks with klieg lights shining on your car and sub-machine guns pointed in your window. welcome to Germany and Mexico. never had that happen here, but been through it in both places numerous times

Yes we have to carry our ID card or passport with us in germany. But never ever the police would stop you and point a sub-machine gun in your window during a regular control!

[LCF]

Originally Posted by netseeker

Yes we have to carry our ID card or passport with us in germany. But never ever the police would stop you and point a sub-machine gun in your window during a regular control!

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by netseeker

Yes we have to carry our ID card or passport with us in germany. But never ever the police would stop you and point a sub-machine gun in your window during a regular control!

Could they if they really wanted to or do you like have laws curbing police powers?

What I mean is can they stop anyone at any time and demand the passport for no reason. Could they set up checkpoints on every street corner and log the ID of any person passing?

You see the Arizona law talks about lawful encounters which is pretty much every encounter. If a policeman says hell to you as you pass by you had a lawful encounter and therefore the policeman or woman would have had the right to check your immigration status. That's rahter intimidating.

I'll give an example. A few weeks ago I was out rather late checking dumpsters behind an electronics store for a large cardboard box I wanted for a project. On my way home empty handed on a public street I was stopped. A policeman drove up to me and told me to stop. Then he asked my name which I was legally required to give but i wasn't legally required to have ID so I didn't offer to show mine. At that point I was not free to go. He asked me a few questions mainly had I seen anyone or anything unusual and then he let me go.

I did feel slightly threatened by the stop but the policeman did try to be friendly and I tried not to show I was upset. Walking a public street, breaking no laws and quite honestly he was probably making sure I wasn't in any trouble out there all alone but what if things had been slightly different?

Suppose the policeman had been having a bad day or I had. What if i had shown anger at being stopped or fear of the man with the gun and handcuffs stopping me? What if I had dark skin? What if it had been Arizona and he demanded proof I was a US citizen or else face an arrest?

This was civil and turned out fine but this new law is ready made for abuse. In what some in this thread consider my naivety I feel that people should be able to go about their buisness in public without law enforcement bothering them. I think they should need a legitimate reason and not be given a ready made excuse to just stop anyone. I think when you face a badge and a gun you see the power of the state staring you down. Someone doing nothing but moving form point A to point B shouldn't have to deal with that.

I can't be sure from your short reply. Do the laws in Germany allow this?

[Logseman]

Once it was materially possible, the Francoist dictatorship shoved up the National Identification Document (DNI in its Spanish name). When you're 14 or older, it's mandatory that you carry it everywhere with you. And of course, beware if you do not produce it at the request of police, who can request it at will. A fine and up to 3 days of imprisonment might await you.

[LCF]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

Could they if they really wanted to or do you like have laws curbing police powers?

What I mean is can they stop anyone at any time and demand the passport for no reason. Could they set up checkpoints on every street corner and log the ID of any person passing?

Yepp, the can. Not only in Germany btw. But they don't demand a passport, they demand the ID-card, which is no more bother to carry than your credit card. Sometimes the driving licence can do the trick, cause it has similar protections, but the police could demand ID and take you on in until you can prove who you are.

You see the Arizona law talks about lawful encounters which is pretty much every encounter. If a policeman says hell to you as you pass by you had a lawful encounter and therefore the policeman or woman would have had the right to check your immigration status. That's rahter intimidating.

This is very difficult question. I've never been bothered from the police. I've been stopped with my aunt's car at 3 a.m. and no car registration papers (at least I had my driving license with me), but even then there were no major problems. I had to actually drive back and come with the papers. Police officers were happy

I'll give an example. A few weeks ago I was out rather late checking dumpsters behind an electronics store for a large cardboard box I wanted for a project. On my way home empty handed on a public street I was stopped. A policeman drove up to me and told me to stop. Then he asked my name which I was legally required to give but i wasn't legally required to have ID so I didn't offer to show mine. At that point I was not free to go. He asked me a few questions mainly had I seen anyone or anything unusual and then he let me go.

I did feel slightly threatened by the stop but the policeman did try to be friendly and I tried not to show I was upset. Walking a public street, breaking no laws and quite honestly he was probably making sure I wasn't in any trouble out there all alone but what if things had been slightly different?

Suppose the policeman had been having a bad day or I had. What if i had shown anger at being stopped or fear of the man with the gun and handcuffs stopping me? What if I had dark skin? What if it had been Arizona and he demanded proof I was a US citizen or else face an arrest?

I don't think that being rude to a police officer is a good idea anywhere in the world.

This was civil and turned out fine but this new law is ready made for abuse. In what some in this thread consider my naivety I feel that people should be able to go about their buisness in public without law enforcement bothering them. I think they should need a legitimate reason and not be given a ready made excuse to just stop anyone. I think when you face a badge and a gun you see the power of the state staring you down. Someone doing nothing but moving form point A to point B shouldn't have to deal with that.

I can't be sure from your short reply. Do the laws in Germany allow this?

Again, AFAIK they do. But the police is not actually there to annoy you or pick up on you. If the fear is, that Arizonan police officers will overstep their rights - the problem is not in the law, but in the police forces.

[netseeker]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

Could they if they really wanted to or do you like have laws curbing police powers?

Yes, they can stop you and demand your ID card, we have laws curbing their powers though.

Originally Posted by Iphinome

What I mean is can they stop anyone at any time and demand the passport for no reason. Could they set up checkpoints on every street corner and log the ID of any person passing?

No, they are not allowed to set up checkpoints on every street corner. (well, there are well defined exceptions, eg. averting a danger) But patrolmen and traffic policemen could stop you at any time for no obvious reason. They don't do that though. They are not allowed to examine the interior of your car without suspicious fact or without your agreement. Also they are not allowed to do a body check without suspicious fact. Also, while our federal police has sub-machine guns in their police vehicles, they are only allowed to use it in special conditions. They are also not allowed to produce their duty weapons (semi-automatic pistol) without suspicious fact.

Originally Posted by Iphinome

If a policeman says hell to you as you pass by you had a lawful encounter and therefore the policeman or woman would have had the right to check your immigration status. That's rahter intimidating.

That's the usual way in germany. Every policemen is allowed to check your ID card (or passport if you are a foreign citizen).

Originally Posted by Iphinome

I'll give an example. A few weeks ago I was out rather late checking dumpsters behind an electronics store for a large cardboard box I wanted for a project. On my way home empty handed on a public street I was stopped. A policeman drove up to me and told me to stop. Then he asked my name which I was legally required to give but i wasn't legally required to have ID so I didn't offer to show mine. At that point I was not free to go. He asked me a few questions mainly had I seen anyone or anything unusual and then he let me go.

Even we are forced to carry our ID card with us, if you forget it it's not the end of the world. Usually the policemen will ask you some questions (eg. ask for your drivers license or another document that could prove your identity) and give you a warning. Without any further suspicious fact nothing else will happen. Well, sometimes you have to pay a small fine then...

Originally Posted by Iphinome

Suppose the policeman had been having a bad day or I had. What if i had shown anger at being stopped or fear of the man with the gun and handcuffs stopping me? What if I had dark skin? What if it had been Arizona and he demanded proof I was a US citizen or else face an arrest?

I don't know how having a dark skin should have any influence on a police control. Our police can demand your ID card but they can't arrest you for no reason.

Well, i can understand that such laws stir up fearing abuse but with the right restricions there will be no space for abuse. I don't know enough about the law proposal in Arizona to form an professional opinion on it though.

[pshrynk]

Now that everyone has had the chance to have their say, I am reclosing this on what is probably a high note. Thank you for the restraint you were able to generate.