Funny I don't feel like a criminal

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

..

A sculptor of a memorial on public land objected to use of a photo by the postal service. Whatever you think would you at least agree reasonable people could see this case differently? Kenny would call it theft of course but would other people? ..

No. No. No. Please don't talk out yer A$$. You clearly do not understand my position on this. And this is such a warped example that it doesn't even apply.

[Iphinome]

Did the post office not steal by making a copy without permission and then selling it and encouraging people to stick it on envelopes and send it to friends? All that stealing the post office are thieves

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

Did the post office not steal by making a copy without permission and then selling it and encouraging people to stick it on envelopes and send it to friends? All that stealing the post office are thieves

Hey, next time I go to a sports event or concert I will print my own ticket. I won't steal anything, since they still have their tickets. And I would never pay for a ticket so they didn't lose anything. So that is fine, that is the way you think.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Hey, next time I go to a sports event or concert I will print my own ticket. I won't steal anything, since they still have their tickets. And I would never pay for a ticket so they didn't lose anything. So that is fine, that is the way you think.

You'd be trespassing and using a false ticket is probably fraud.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

You'd be trespassing and using a false ticket is probably fraud.

So using a "false" ebook -- a copy not created by somebody legally authorized is also fraud? I was just using the above example as a case from the physical world where the event organizers' damage is exactly the same as when an ebook is copied (except for fair use). Because some always make the argument "the copy rights' holders still have their copy, so I didn't do anything wrong". If you believe that, you must also believe that you haven't harmed anyone by going to the concert for free.

[Iphinome]

Did you pass it off as real? Deny anyone else the ability to use an authorized copy?

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

Did you pass it off as real? Deny anyone else the ability to use an authorized copy?

It is a hypothetical example. Of course, you would have to pass the fake ticket off as real. And let us assume that they were not sold out, so you are not denying anyone his or her seat. So, would it be wrong?

[Iphinome]

Wrong? Well, trespassing, fraud passing off a copied ticket as original, wear and tear on the facilities, sounds unlawful. Would it be wrong to stand outside and listen to the show? Either way I saw arguing that a case of infringement isn't always cut and dry and against people using the word theft, I wouldn't say the person with the copied ticket stole a concert, I'd say they trespassed and the mere possession of a copied ticket isn't the issue. In fact I wish I had perfect copies of some tickets I used in the past instead of just the stubs, stubs are good enough but the full ticket with some of my playbills, that'd be kind of cool.

Thank you HansTWN, at first i was a bit dubious on this copying of tickets idea but you've sold me on it, so where do I get these perfect copies and can this copier make nice playbills too? Some of mine are a bit beat up.

Anyway since you equate infringement to theft, what do you think of the way overly long copyrights pushed by big media companies rape the public domain. I mean I'm sure there's plenty of inflammatory words to go with piracy and theft.

[kennyc]

Many corporate tactics are equivalent to rape. Wars are often termed rape and plunder.

Taking things you don't have rights to is theft. It's really quite simple.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

Wrong? Well, trespassing, fraud passing off a copied ticket as original, wear and tear on the facilities, sounds unlawful. Would it be wrong to stand outside and listen to the show? Either way I saw arguing that a case of infringement isn't always cut and dry and against people using the word theft, I wouldn't say the person with the copied ticket stole a concert, I'd say they trespassed and the mere possession of a copied ticket isn't the issue. In fact I wish I had perfect copies of some tickets I used in the past instead of just the stubs, stubs are good enough but the full ticket with some of my playbills, that'd be kind of cool.

Thank you HansTWN, at first i was a bit dubious on this copying of tickets idea but you've sold me on it, so where do I get these perfect copies and can this copier make nice playbills too? Some of mine are a bit beat up.

Anyway since you equate infringement to theft, what do you think of the way overly long copyrights pushed by big media companies rape the public domain. I mean I'm sure there's plenty of inflammatory words to go with piracy and theft.

You can over analyze any example. Just disregard the part that has no relevance to our discussion here. And may I suggest you take a look at some of those advanced laser printers out there?

I am with you that copyrights are too long. I wouldn't call it rape, however. But let us take this at face value -- someone else does something wrong, so that justifies our wrongdoing? Corporate greed justifies personal greed?

So I understand you correctly , you only object to overly long protection and you agree unauthorized copying is theft when it occurs within a reasonable period, let us just say 20 years (or whatever)?

[TGS]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Taking things you don't have rights to is theft.

Nah, property is theft - I thought everyone knew that!

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Many corporate tactics are equivalent to rape. Wars are often termed rape and plunder.

Taking things you don't have rights to is theft. It's really quite simple.

So then I was correct you think what the post office did was stealing, they apparently didn't have the right to use a photo of a memorial on public grounds. To you that's theft. Of course to the courts that was infringement and to me it's silly on several levels. I suggested reasonable people could disagree on something like that. You and HansTWN jumped on me, if you want a down and dirty argument on the subject I can provide one and I can do more than repeat the words stealing and theft over and over.

For example, taking a photo isn't the same as taking a monument any more than making a photocopy of an article is taking a magazine you seem to miss the point that nothing was taken let's try it like this, if you hook into a cable company's system to took their service, put stress on their network created a measurable loss. If you set up a satellite dish and make use of a signal that was just bouncing around the planet (receiving not transmitting) that's their loss, you didn't take anything from them, the dumbasses put the signal in the public airwaves. Both parties will call you a thief but you only had an impact on one of them.

Don't you find it odd that other people understand the difference between theft and infringement? How about robbery and embezzlement?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by TGS

Nah, property is theft - I thought everyone knew that!

That's sure a funny thing to believe. Property = Theft.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

So I understand you correctly , you only object to overly long protection and you agree unauthorized copying is theft when it occurs within a reasonable period, let us just say 20 years (or whatever)?

Part one pretty much, part 2 never. Infringement != theft. I'll agree it's immoral in many but not all cases. Some people argue ebooks are an added value I disagree. Some might even argue scanning your own book is infringement since it makes an unauthorized copy, I disagree with that. Backups of ebooks may or may not be considered fair use but even if it ends up being decided to not be fair use legally I'm all for it. I see no moral difference between scanning you falling to pieces copy of the moon is a harsh mistress and downloading it from someone who saved you the trouble of doing it yourself and I'm personally starting to wonder if a form of statutory license for some uses might be a good compromise to the problems that are starting to emerge, it worked for radio and sheet music, both industries who are called pirates and thieves back int he day and in fact now radio is being hounded about who they pay and what they pay.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

So then I was correct you think what the post office did was stealing, they apparently didn't have the right to use a photo of a memorial on public grounds. ...

What I find odd it that you don't have a clue what I'm talking about and you keep acting like you do. No you are NOT CORRECT. It is a very poor example and has little relevance to the digital book world. The sports ticket or movie ticket example is way more relevant.