Seriously thoughtful The three mass shootings this month - are they related to the recession?

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by slayda

No group is convicted of murder simply by belonging to that group. It seems to me that the legal system works with only minor or occasional miscarriages of justice.

Excuse me? Are we letting "bygones be bygones here"?

[desertgrandma]

You aren't in favor of racial profiling?

How then do you search for a suspect described as "black, 5' 10" tall, wearing a bozo wig"?

A cop pulling over a car at any time does so because he has the knowledge, experience and instinct to know if there is something hinky about the driver, passengers, etc. This applies regardless of the race.

So the reason that more blacks are incarcerated would seem to be the fact that they commit more of the crimes......or at least get caught more often.

Simple solution here. STOP BREAKING THE LAW.

So we need to be "fair" here and arrest more Whites, Asians, etc.?

[astra]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

So we need to be "fair" here and arrest more Whites, Asians, etc.?

You come back to what I said about colleges in Britain. Lower exam levels so Asian minorities get better scores and "look" as smart as their white brothers regardless of their brain power.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by astra

You come back to what I said about colleges in Britain. Lower exam levels so Asian minorities get better scores and "look" as smart as their white brothers regardless of their brain power.

Interesting. Here, Asians ARE smarter........or maybe the culture insists they use their brains.

Standards are lowered here so that blacks can look smarter.

[astra]

I probably have to add that Asian minorities here are of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin.

[HarryT]

Astra,

The word "Asian" has a different meaning in the UK and US. In the UK it means "from the Indian subcontinent"; in the US it means "from the Far East" - ie Japan, China, Vietnam, Korea, etc.

I have to take issue with your remarks about "Asian" students, by the way. I have many friends in the Asian community, and their culture places an EXTREMELY high value on education, and their children work damned work and get excellent marks. I agree with you that educational standards have slipped in the UK in the last decades, but to "blame" that on Asian students is just silly.

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Astra,

The word "Asian" has a different meaning in the UK and US. In the UK it means "from the Indian subcontinent"; in the US it means "from the Far East" - ie Japan, China, Vietnam, Korea, etc.

I have to take issue with your remarks about "Asian" students, by the way. I have many friends in the Asian community, and their culture places an EXTREMELY high value on education, and their children work damned work and get excellent marks. I agree with you that educational standards have slipped in the UK in the last decades, but to "blame" that on Asian students is just silly.

NOFI, but the same might be said about DG's glib remarks about how "blacks" are "lowering" american educational standards. People venting these generalizing kinds of "truths" about specific ethnic groups make me very uncomfortable.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Astra,

The word "Asian" has a different meaning in the UK and US. In the UK it means "from the Indian subcontinent"; in the US it means "from the Far East" - ie Japan, China, Vietnam, Korea, etc.

I've always used 'Asian' to refer to the area from India to Japan.

But the BBC's 'Asian' network seems to have the subcontinent meaning Harry describes - maybe I'm out of step.

[HarryT]

I agree with you, Sparrow, that "logically" it should mean the entire continent of Asia, from Turkey through to China, but the practical usage of the word in the UK certainly does appear to be restricted to the Indian subcontinent. I don't know how it got that way - perhaps because of the former British rule of India?

[astra]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Astra,

The word "Asian" has a different meaning in the UK and US. In the UK it means "from the Indian subcontinent"; in the US it means "from the Far East" - ie Japan, China, Vietnam, Korea, etc.

I have to take issue with your remarks about "Asian" students, by the way. I have many friends in the Asian community, and their culture places an EXTREMELY high value on education, and their children work damned work and get excellent marks. I agree with you that educational standards have slipped in the UK in the last decades, but to "blame" that on Asian students is just silly.

I realised that Asian in the UK and in the USA have different backgrounds, that is why I belatedly clarified it

I do not blame Asians. I blame government and equal opportunity and political correctness that causes the problem.

If 5 out of 10 white guys are smart and for some reason only 3 out of 10 Asian guys are smart, one cannot try and close the gap!

[HarryT]

Sure, some people are "smarter" than others, but to say that it's connected with "ethnic origin" is, I think, of highly dubious validity.

[astra]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Sure, some people are "smarter" than others, but to say that it's connected with "ethnic origin" is, I think, of highly dubious validity.

Well that is what prefect on my college was boasting on the last meeting. That we managed to close the gap in achievement between white and asian minorities.

[kazbates]

As I am coming very late to this dicussion, I have a few comments and will not take the time to wade back to make quotes. I will comment only on what I know from my own experiences.

Reproduction:
I have two siblings with microcephaly. The mental handicaps resulting from this can be and usually are severe. They have never and will never live what we consider a "normal" life. As this is a genetically transmitted birth defect, the last thing I would want is for either of them to reproduce. They do not have the mental capacity to care for themselves, let alone care for any child. Before my husband and I had children, we thought long and hard about the possible outcomes. We went through extensive genetic counseling and this was before the recent advancements in identifying genetic charateristics. The fact that, as far as we could tell, there wasn't any evidence of microcephaly in my husbands family, we felt the odds were in our favor to have children without microcephaly. Because of my family history, we took the responsibility of reproducing seriously and intellectually. It wasn't that difficult to do. Had the genetic counseling indicated that our chances of having a child with microcephaly were high, we would not have had children. Comparatively, there was a woman in Florida who had 13 children, all of whom provided her with a child support welfare check. She did not work and the majority of her children had different sires. When the governor called her on it, he was criticized by the press and because she happened to be black, by many high-profile black activists. When is enough, enough? The difference between humans and animals in the "right to reproduce" issue is that we have the intellect to decide whether or not we should.

Education:
In the school systems I've worked in as an educator (3 different states here in the US), the schools located in lower income areas receive more money and faculty support through government programs and grants than those schools in other areas. In this day and age of accountability (based on student performance on standardized tests), if a school fails to make it's goals, administrations from all levels, local and state, become activitly involved to help the school meet the goals. In other words, every opportunity to help these children perform to the necessary standards is made by the teachers, administration, etc. These children are given every opportunity to succeed. The problem is parental involvement. As stated previously by another poster, those students whose parents take an active role in their child's education are successful. It doesn't matter whether the parents are single, working, stay-at-home, whatever, they must be involved. Parents that encourage their children and show them that education is important and that hard work is necessary will see their children succeed. Parents have to put their children's welfare above their own. It is their responsibilty as a parent and the choice they made when they decided to bring that little person into this world.

U.S.A.
One of the things we value most in this country is our independence. We want to make our won choices, good or bad. I don't want someone choosing my healthcare provider, where I or my children go to college, how I should spend my charitable dollars, etc. I am a middle class American. My two children who are currently attending college have had to get student loans in excess of $30,000 even though they live at home and commute. When my daugther turned 22, I had to start paying for her health insurance, because she was no longer eligable through our plan even though she is still a student. Even with these difficulties, I do not want the government to get involved. I can take care of my own. Granted I have the means, but my husband and I have worked VERY hard for what we have and have made many sacrifices along the way to be in the position we are in today. No one helped us, we helped ourselves.

Original Topic:
This guy snapped, pure and simple, just as the Virginia Tech kid snapped. Tensions are high because of the economic downturns, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse for heinous behaviour.
Kaz

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

NOFI, but the same might be said about DG's glib remarks about how "blacks" are "lowering" american educational standards. People venting these generalizing kinds of "truths" about specific ethnic groups make me very uncomfortable.

Ummmm.... Please decode "NOFI" for me. Thanks.

"truths" about specific ethnic groups often seem overgeneralized (at best). But there are some statements we can make legitimately (I think). For example:

• In the US, children from the Asian immigrant community (that's of Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc.) have historically averaged somewhat higher grades than their non-immigrant classmates.
• Most hispanics in the US are Roman Catholic.
• In the mid-1800s the Irish were considered the least-desirable of all immigrant groups. Two generations later, the stereotype was the "Irish Policeman." Now, nobody notices whether or not you're Irish except on St. Patrick's Day (when the entire country is "Irish").
• Plenty more where these came from.

What's different about these statements -- assuming I hit the target I was aiming for -- is that they avoid implying that "All X are Y" or "because you're an A you're also smart/stupid/shiftless/hardworking." (And if they don't avoid that, it's because I screwed up the writing!)

If I rewrote DG's statement as "Standards are lowered here so that inner city students can look smarter" (italicized words mine), does that seem more acceptable? It's no longer quite the same statement, but it often appears to be accurate (from the outside, at least).

Xenophon

[Xenophon]

While writing the latter, I noticed a possible correlation amongst my wife's adult literacy students. No, it's not racial -- bite your tongue! Rather, they all describe having stopped learning at some point in school (often quite young!), and having been promoted from one grade to the next anyway. In many cases, they tried to start learning again years later, but were so far behind what was (supposedly) being taught in the classes that it was a hopeless effort. Does this perhaps suggest that the common "social promotion" policy followed in US public schools might not be the best idea?

Thoughts, anyone? Kazbates?
Xenophon