It is the Worst of Times for Reading EBooks

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

Most of e-books today are created in Kindle format, which uses proprietary serialized markup. EPUB3 is pretty much dead.

Actually, that's wrong. Most Kindle eBooks are created in ePub2 or ePub3 and then converted to Kindle format using one of Amazon's tools. It's easier to create ePub as there are good tools for that like Sigil or Calibre's Editor. It also means that there will be an ePub version as well as the Kindle version(s).

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by amgoforth

I wanted to love the Osasis, but I hate the shape of it.

The Oasis 1 is a terrible design. The battery cover is also dreadful. It was a big mistake for Amazon making the Oasis 1.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

There is only one kind of EPUB3, and it has already "taken off." All EPUB3 books are "true" EPUB3s. And once again... no. There is no such thing as an EPUB3 "wrapper." You're showing your ignorance by suggesting there is. EPUB2 must be converted to EPUB3. Not wrapped. Whether there's any multimedia or not, EPUB3 is a different beast altogether. Different html version, different css version, different opf specifications, different metadata, and different structure. You CANNOT take an EPUB2, slip a sweater on it and call it an EPUB3.

When you go to respond to this in a week or so, please consider just accepting the fact that you're woefully uninformed in this area.

Any eBooks that's ePub3 that can be converted to ePub2 and lose no functionality is ePub2 in an ePub3 wrapper. Yes, I know it's a valid ePub3, but it doesn't need to be ePub3. I think this is being done just so the publishers can say they sell ePub3 eBooks. It's very easy to convert there ePub3 to ePub2, have less code bloat and they still work the same.

With these ePub3, if you read them in a true ePub3 renderer, do you get any functionality over the same eBook being in ePub2?

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Any eBooks that's ePub3 that can be converted to ePub2 and lose no functionality is ePub2 in an ePub3 wrapper. Yes, I know it's a valid ePub3, but it doesn't need to be ePub3. I think this is being done just so the publishers can say they sell ePub3 eBooks. It's very easy to convert there ePub3 to ePub2, have less code bloat and they still work the same.

With these ePub3, if you read them in a true ePub3 renderer, do you get any functionality over the same eBook being in ePub2?

Stop saying "true" epub3. It's making you look foolish. The conversation is not about functionality. What "functionality" did epub2 offer over OEBPS? For that matter, what functionality to epub2 provide over straight-up xhtml/css? Why did we need a special container for the presentation/navigation of html content at all?

Clearly the world at large does not believe that the be-all end-all factor in the decision to adopt new specs/formats is having new "functionality" available. Only you do.

The docx format did not offer me a single advantage in the presentation of multiple paragraphs on a page over the .doc format. Yet nearly all my documents have been updated to the new format.

Oh, and there's no code "bloat" in epub3 when it comes to text-only, reflowable books. In fact, the contents of a text-only book might have less markup when coded as HTML5/Epub3 then it would be as XHTML/Epub2. You're showing your lack of knowledge yet again.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Stop saying "true" epub3. It's making you look foolish. The conversation is not about functionality. What "functionality" did epub2 offer over OEBPS? For that matter, what functionality to epub2 provide over straight-up xhtml/css? Why did we need a special container for the presentation/navigation of html content at all?

Clearly the world at large does not believe that the be-all end-all factor in the decision to adopt new specs/formats is having new "functionality" available. Only you do.

The docx format did not offer me a single advantage in the presentation of multiple paragraphs on a page over the .doc format. Yet nearly all my documents have been updated to the new format.

Oh, and there's no code "bloat" in epub3 when it comes to text-only, reflowable books. In fact, the contents of a text-only book might have less markup when coded as HTML5/Epub3 then it would be as XHTML/Epub2. You're showing your lack of knowledge yet again.

ePub2, NCX Toc, HTML ToC
ePub3, NCX ToC, HTML ToC, NAV ToC

ePub3, all those extra meta property lines in OPF
ePub2, none

ePub3, span epub:type
ePub2, none

ePub3, iBooks reference in the OPF header
ePub2, nothing to do with iBooks

ePub3, <section></section>
ePub2, none

As for the container, we do not a container to hold all the files together. Imagine the mess we'd have if all eBooks did not have a container and all we had was just the files for the eBook.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

ePub3, all those extra meta property lines in OPF
ePub2, none

Extra meta refines not required for epub3. The're optional. Just like all the optional dc:metadata that all epub2s don't include. Try again.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

ePub3, span epub:type
ePub2, none

No, epub2 content creators just have to spam the content with extra divs and spans to be able to accommodate the complex css they want to use for their book. Where the more simplistic inherent structural nature of html5 elements and the advantages of css3 allow them to accomplish the same (and more) with less markup and less css.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

ePub3, iBooks reference in the OPF header
ePub2, nothing to do with iBooks

epub3, nothing to do with iBooks. Tons of epub3 books are created without an iBooks reference in the opf "header" every day.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

ePub3, <section></section>
ePub2, none

epub2 not none. epub2:

<div class="section" id="section1"><span class="section_first_line"></span></div>

Jon. You know not of what you speak. Stop trying.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

ePub2, NCX Toc, HTML ToC
ePub3, NCX ToC, HTML ToC, NAV ToC

I may as well toss in that in an ePub3 document, the NCX ToC is only included for epub2 backwards compatibility and is not needed.

Neither format needs a HTML ToC. Epub2 uses the NCX ToC. Epub3 uses the NAV ToC. The HTML ToC is purely for humans and is not mandated for either epub2 or epub3.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Extra meta refines not required for epub3. The're optional. Just like all the optional dc:metadata that all epub2s don't include. Try again.

But they are there. They are there more then DC:metadata sometimes.

No, epub2 content creators just have to spam the content with extra divs and spans to be able to accommodate the complex css they want to use for their book. Where the more simplistic inherent structural nature of html5 elements and the advantages of css3 allow them to accomplish the same (and more) with less markup and less css.

Most eBooks can do away with these divs and spans and there is no loss of formatting. I do it all the time (well, when I see this extra mess).

epub3, nothing to do with iBooks. Tons of epub3 books are created without an iBooks reference in the opf "header" every day.

A lot do use the iBooks rubbish in the OPF.

epub2 not none. epub2:

<div class="section" id="section1"><span class="section_first_line"></span></div>

That's not ePub2 specific and section can be just about anything as it's a class. I'm talking the actual <section></section> code.

Jon. You know not of what you speak. Stop trying.

I know of what I speak. Sorry you don't get it.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DNSB

I may as well toss in that in an ePub3 document, the NCX ToC is only included for epub2 backwards compatibility and is not needed.

Neither format needs a HTML ToC. Epub2 uses the NCX ToC. Epub3 uses the NAV ToC. The HTML ToC is purely for humans and is not mandated for either epub2 or epub3.

What renderer actually uses the NAV ToC when there is also a NCX ToC?

I do know that you don't need the HTML ToC and I do delete it because it's code bloat with no value.

[jackie_w]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

What renderer actually uses the NAV ToC when there is also a NCX ToC?

When I last did a test the kepub renderer on the Kobo used the NAV rather than the NCX if both were present.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I do know that you don't need the HTML ToC and I do delete it because it's code bloat with no value.

Me too.

[DiapDealer]

Enjoy your delusion, Jon. You've worked hard to avoid reality for a long time, now.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

What renderer actually uses the NAV ToC when there is also a NCX ToC?

I do know that you don't need the HTML ToC and I do delete it because it's code bloat with no value.

The epub3 renderer in a Kobo ereader. Readium based code. Microsoft Edge.

[infobooks]

Well I agree to some point especially when you talk about the dangers to our eyes. But ebooks is not dying. In fact it is gaining more grounds and it will be this for many years to come now.

My personal views though.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by leebase

It is the worst of times....

Looking back over ten years of participating on this forum, I think it is the worst of times for reading ebooks. IMHO.

eInk innovation has all but come to a stop. Where are the large eInk readers with pen input and worklow? Where is color? Yeah, yeah...yet another one is "real close" and just showed something "promising" that they never said would make it into a tablet ereader.

eInk pricing fell to a certain point, and then stopped. Tablets are now cheaper than an eInk reader.

There are no more independant eInk devices to speak of. Surely not of the quality of the Sony line. Pretty much "eco system" plays like Amazon, Kobo and Nook are all that's left. And only Amazon has a healthy business.

Fictionwise and many many other beloved ebook stores are gone and are never coming back. Along with them are the special pricing deals that so many of us loved.

The rise of audio books is a detriment to actual reading. It's bad enough with the twitters, face place, and insta-whosit's of the world destroying people's attention spans....now folks are too lazy to learn to read and are counting listening to a book as if it's reading.

The big 5 are all still in business. There is no difference in pricing of books from the big 5 in any of the stores.

Sometimes eBooks cost the same or even MORE than a paper book.

You still don't own an ebook, you have a license for it.

eBooks are too d@mned expensive. Apparently.

Apple still sells ebooks.

DRM is still the norm. Everyone's ebooks can disappear at any moment.

People are going blind because they are reading on tablets and phones which shoot light DIRECTLY INTO YOUR EYE. eInk, where light must first bounce before finding your eye, isn't being embraced by everyone the way SCIENCE tells us it SHOULD.

It is the worst of times for reading ebooks.

While I agree with all you said, on some level, I also disagree.

In pure reading terms, with a good e-ink reader, things are great and in some ways better than they ever were.

Where things fall down, and they do in a few ways, is future prospects to some degree, especially as regards e-ink devices, where the future isn't clear at all. Then there is the ebook prices in many instances, where some publishers are playing games and no doubt testing what they can get away with, using psychology with a lot of weak minded people for sure. If that isn't bad enough, then we have very little flexibility with prices, as you mentioned, and a real monopoly is going on.

Sure, there are a bunch of benefits, and many think those outweigh the losses, and perhaps they do. But still, where will we be in 10 years from now?

I used to buy a lot of second hand books, especially when a book I wanted wasn't readily available or too steep a price. You can't of course do second hand with ebooks, not legally ... and DRM can ruin that anyway.

As a buyer/reader I feel I am gradually losing control over the books I want to read and usually keep. I have rebelled in various ways, and now go more for Indie ebooks.

I am definitely not a happy reader sometimes. And to be honest, the relationship I have with several publishers and even authors at times, has really soured. The good and bad with technology and posting messages etc.

I have heard it said many times, that books have been devalued by their digital versions, but really for me, it is more about losing respect for the providers, who are often behaving in bad ways and offering up lame excuses.

Definitely not enough transparency going on, and not enough care or smarts for the transition between physical and digital.

Take the situation with my wife and mother. They often read the same books, and not so many years ago, they used lend to each other. Now it has become more problematical, especially as my mother's eyesight means she needs either (hard to get) large print books or ebooks for her iPad. My wife has a Samsung tablet, but despite reading the odd ebook, prefers not to, and really wants to read the old fashioned way. I cannot convince her or my mother to use an E-Ink device, even though they have tried out my Kindles. So now, the same book is being bought twice (at least), whereas it used to be once. That's not even considering other family members and friends who used to share and borrow. So it seems to me, that publishers are reaping a huge advantage, but in many cases give pathetic excuses, despite all the facts, about why ebooks can't be much cheaper, and sometimes are the same or more in price.

However, despite the backward steps at times, I still feel ebooks are a progress in the right direction.

[FlyHero]

I agree and a recent search for a new device to replace my 2011 one has been a disappointment. I have seen a decrease in screen lightness and clarity and just a bunch of features I never use added. It would be one thing if those features were added to the existing quality, but even worse screens are darker than they used to be and all the ppi in the world doesn't change that.

I don't like reading on tablets, but I am very disappointed in e-inks development. I expected much more for lower cost at this point. I want a simple, large screen reader that doesn't cost 2-300 dollars and isn't darker than an 8yo device (requiring a light to make it visually appealing). I had also hoped to see E-ink in watches, computer displays etc too and short of some failed experiments or super expensive small options like the Dasung's there is nothing. I'd love a full sized "E-ink" computer monitor for text work but a glitchy $1000 13" display doesn't cut it.