Sick of Amazon Kindle books without Page Numbers...

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by ApK

Be sure to put the TOC in the back!

And one post per page.

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Well, you did such a fine job on the technical breakdown, the least I could do is provide the closing thoughts.

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

No I am on a tablet and it is a pain to try and quote one little piece.

You know that you could always just hit the "Reply" button instead of the "Quote" button, and say something like: "Tex2002ans, what about this this this?"

If there is no quote, people typically assume that you are responding to the post right above you (or a few posts above you).

Or you could always use the text selection by long pressing on text to highlight it. It wouldn't take long to just delete the irrelevant surrounding text and only quote the exact sentences/paragraph you are responding to.

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Another idea: we should just turn this thread into an ebook with actual page numbers and sell it on Amazon.

Remember what Tex2002ans said on page 4-10 (Hardcover, published by Cinisajoy), page 6-12 (Softcover, published by ApK), page 5-11 (ADE), location 50-85 (Kindle), on screen 8-20 (on my Kobo with font size 3, line-spacing 2, middle margins, Times New Roman font, [...]), in version 1.1 of the EPUB version that was last tweaked on April 4, 2016, in Post #166 + #187, where he says "in a time before time"?

Here... let me give you a link to a previous post that is quite far away from the relevant text.

[Cinisajoy]

Tex2002ans,
See post above yours for idea on how to solve page number problems and check your email.

[Katsunami]

I voted "Not important", as it is the closest answer for me.

First, I want page numbers. Second, I don't care if Amazon (or whomever else) puts them in or not. I create my own, using the Page Count plugin in Calibre. Previously, I used 2400 characters on a page (which is the average in many Del Rey paperbacks I had in the past), but recently, I use 2100, to account for whitespace.

Now I can perfectly compare the thickness of a book, as two 400 page books are now exactly the same length, which wouldn't necessarily be true in paper. (I assume that none of the books have weird stuff, like 30% of the book being made up of promotional chapters or something.)

[tompe]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

Some times. Other times it's a formatting change (different size HC, Trade PB, MMPB, large print, etc).

But text will be corrected in each new edition. So the text can always be different.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

I thought I was clearer with a few examples at the very end of that last post under "Pitfall of Byte Counts", but perhaps not.

Let me add one more potential case of the actual backend code of the book changing:

A lot of the ebooks that I work on is cleaning up crappily converted EPUBs. I will go through and fix OCR errors, correct footnotes, change hideous JPGs of Greek letters to actual Unicode Greek characters, digitize formulas, change images of Tables -> HTML versions, clean the code itself in the backend, [...].

Then we (as publishers) rerelease an updated "version 2.0" of the ebook.

Depending on how extensive the code fixes are, you can imagine that this could drastically change the size of the HTML files (and would throw off the Byte Method page numbering).

As a real life example, back in 2013 I worked on The Great Austrian Economists by Randall Holcolmbe (Before/After pictures + some discussion posted here):

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...06#post2672206

Here is a single set of example images if you are too lazy to click on the link:

Original PDF Scan: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/att...0&d=1383241259
Old EPUB: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/att...1&d=1383241259
New EPUB: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/att...5&d=1383241264

I just took a look at one of the largest EPUB redo projects I ever handled, and the ADE "pages" went from 3627 "pages" (Before) -> 3614 "pages" (After), just from the sheer amount of code cleanup + corrections. I also ran it through KindleGen and it went from 73190 "locations" (Before) -> 71266 "locations" (After).

I also tested the first version of A Dance With Dragons that I purchased from B&N, and it was 1100 ADE "pages", the later version was 1101 ADE "pages". Most of what changed was minor typo corrections + different code for lists (went from <li> to using <div>).

You can probably extrapolate the hideous InDesign/Quark code cleanup (I don't feel like hunting down one of those books right now), but you can see from my Example #1-#3 above how the Kindle "locations" could easily be thrown off (and ADE's algorithm too, although not as wildly).

The original ePub is still the same. It hasn't changed. ADE's page numbers are still the same. The reformatted edition is a different version/edition. It's not the same file. The original ePub still has not changed anything. The new ePub is a different file. So yes, the ADE page number is going to be different. But then you have two different files, not one that's just suddenly changed. If I change an ePub, then yes, ADE page number will change. But after I finish, it's no longer the same as it was. The original file still uses the same ADE page numbers. So no, byte count page numbering works just fine.

Taking your example, if you had a pBook that was much reformatted as the ePub was, I would expect the page number to change in the newer edition.

In the future, maybe a lot of other ebooks will be changing images of formulas to MathML... that is also going to throw off the Byte Method of page numbers.

Not until more Readers are using a version of RMDSK that can handle MathML.

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Not until more Readers are using a version of RMDSK that can handle MathML.

You agree that the EPUBs with MathML added will:

• still be EPUBs?
  
• still have the same copyright page?
  
• still have the same ISBN?
  
• still be based on the same physical version of the book?

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The reformatted edition is a different version/edition. It's not the same file. The original ePub still has not changed anything. The new ePub is a different file.

Look, your typical reader (and referencer) deals with the book at the book level. As eschwartz mentioned in Post #183, many readers have their devices set to just automatically download the latest editions:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...76#post3293676

The readers are completely oblivious to code changes that occur in the backend (be it minor or not so minor).

Side Note: It is sort of like Google Play (or iTunes). The latest version of the program downloads, and most people have no idea. If you get a new Android phone and go onto the Play Store now, you only get to download the latest/greatest version of the apps. You can't get older versions of the apps through them, and you have to rely on some third party to get the older APKs (or hope the programmer offers older versions on their site). (See my "Dreamy Note" + FileHippo talk below).

Some Side Thoughts

As a customer/reader/referencer:

• You most likely have zero access to older versions of the books
  
  • It would be really nice if stores like B&N/Amazon/Kobo would offer some functionality like this.
    
    • I am imagining something like FileHippo where they store the latest + all the older versions of the programs along with the date they were released.
      
    • Although this still wouldn't help little differences across stores (iTunes XML file, different cover requirements, [...]).
      
      • The EPUB on iTunes might be exactly the same besides a larger resolution cover. To most non-technical people, the iTunes EPUB and the B&N EPUB is the same exact book. (Yes, I know, technically, different file, different hash, but the text + code + important stuff is exactly the same).
        
    • Dreamy Note: If I was in my ultimate dream, I would aim for some sort of Github-type system, where everyone would upload their copies of the books, they would get uncompressed, all the individual files would be hashed, and you could see exact text/code differences. Alas, this would never happen (DRM) + you would be killed off by copyright.
      
• Typically there is no visual note of what exact version of the book you actually have (let alone some sort of consistent versioning system across stores/publishers/authors).
  
  • In the case of a physical book, you could be quite reliant on the copyright page stating the year the book was printed. You may also have a "Second/Third Printing".
    
    • This works/worked well because physical books are/were one and done. The publishers rarely touch the physical book ever again once printed.
      
  • In the case of ebooks, there are sometimes tens of revisions in a year (or over the lifetime of a book). Also, as stated above, there are sometimes even multiple ebook versions just due to different stores.
    
    • Sometimes the publisher might mark the ebook with some sort of version number on the copyright page... but there is no standard, and no guarantee that they would do this. And it does bupkus for the person referencing the work (you can't use that version number in the MLA/APA citation).
      

Now, let us go back to a few of the real life examples of the Byte Method getting thrown off.

Example #1

Let us go back to my A Dance with Dragons example.

Copyright 2011
ISBN: 978-0-553-90565-6
Published by Bantam Books

If I was citing the book in MLA, it would be this:

Martin, George R.R. A Dance with Dragons. New York: Bantam Books, 2011. EPUB file.

APA would be this:

Martin, George R.R. (2011). A Dance with Dragons [EPUB]. New York: Bantam Books.

Here are a few code changes from the one I bought the day it came out, and the version I downloaded a few years later:

He has written fantasy, horror, and science fiction, and for his sins spent ten years in Hollywood as a writer/producer, working on <em>The Twilight Zone, Beauty and the Beast</em>, and various feature films and television pilots that were never made.

He has written fantasy, horror, and science fiction, and for his sins spent ten years in Hollywood as a writer/producer, working on <em>The Twilight Zone</em>, <em>Beauty and the Beast</em>, and various feature films and television pilots that were never made.

Young Griff laughed, but the Halfmaester only said, &#x201C;Again.&#x201D; The boy obeyed, though he rolled his eyes along with his <em>zzzs</em> this time.

Young Griff laughed, but the Halfmaester only said, &#x201C;Again.&#x201D; The boy obeyed, though he rolled his eyes along with his <em>zzz</em>s this time.

Yandry thumped the wine cask down onto the desk.

Yandry thumped the wine cask down onto the deck.

Be <em>quiet!</em>

<em>Be quiet!</em>

Which EPUB version were these from?

Well I can tell you one thing for sure... all were from B&N and all were from the official EPUB version of A Dance with Dragons.

Somewhere along the line, the ADE "page" gets thrown off by a single page (1100 -> 1101).

If you cited the ADE "page" number, and I made sure to follow the MLA/APA citation (getting that specific publisher, that year, [...]), and I bought the EPUB today, the ADE page number would be wrong by 1.

Example #2

Let us go back to the pure code cleanup:

<p>
<span><span><span><span><span><span>The</span></span></span></span></span></span> 
<span><span><span><span><span><span>boy</span></span></span></span></span></span> 
<span><span><span><span><span><span>jumped</span></span></span></span></span></span> 
<span><span><span><span><span><span>over</span></span></span></span></span></span> 
<span><span><span><span><span><span>the</span></span></span></span></span></span> 
<span><span><span><span><span><span>moon.</span></span></span></span></span></span>
</p>

and:

<p>The boy jumped over the moon.</p>

Both of these appear exactly the same to the reader. Only way you could tell the difference is if you actually popped the book open and took a look at the code.

They are both EPUBs, the displayed text is the same, they are both based on the same print edition, there was no change in copyright, no change in ISBN, no change in anything the normal reader can see.

Enough of these code changes though, and the ADE "pages" or Kindle "locations" can get thrown off.

Even if you did take a look at the code inside, what would it matter, it would do you zero good. There is no database of all the different versions of the ones/tens/hundreds of variations of ebooks out there (as in my "Dreamy Note").

Example #3

Back to my Greek example.

Original Code:

[...] ψυχ<img alt="" src="../Images/0001.jpg" /> is certainly derived from ψ<img alt="" src="../Images/0002.jpg" />χω, to blow; [...]

Fixed:

[...] ψυχή is certainly derived from ψύχω, to blow; [...]

You agree that:

• The character 'ή' is smaller in filesize than the code "<img alt="" src="../Images/0001.jpg" />" (image of the Greek character)
• The character 'ύ' is smaller in filesize than the code "<img alt="" src="../Images/0002.jpg" />" (image of the Greek character)

The text displayed would be functionally equivalent, correct? (Although we all agree that the Greek characters as tiny images is absolute crap).

Multiply this by ones/tens/hundreds of Greek fixes, and the ADE/Kindle page numbers have the potential to be thrown off.

Some More Side Thoughts

I was looking around for MLA/APA citations on ebooks, and I stumbled across this:

https://academia.stackexchange.com/q...-are-available

A user, gman, posted this list of "preferred methods of referencing" (which he derived from the Chicago Manual of Style):

1. Page number (where stable ones exist/some new kindle books match the print edition)
2. Chapter or paragraph number
3. Section heading
4. descriptive phrase that follows the organizational divisions

Pretty interesting how great minds think alike.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Taking your example, if you had a pBook that was much reformatted as the ePub was, I would expect the page number to change in the newer edition.

If the publishers do actually go back and fix the physical book, they go through great lengths to use very careful copyediting + kerning + microtypography to keep the words/letters at the beginning/end of pages exactly (and I mean exactly) the same. (Typically they aim for keeping the characters at the beginning/end of lines the same so you would almost have no clue anything was different).

Typically they only make the most minor of changes (like a missing period, or a wrong quotation mark, misspelling, [...]).

Luckily, hideous InDesign code does not come out on the printed page. If it did, you would be horrified at the dreck that is behind the scenes. In digital files though, you get it all!

[Barbara1955]

Wondering WHY I have Page Numbers on the Fire 10 BUT Not on the PW3 Same books....

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Katie1

Wondering WHY I have Page Numbers on the Fire 10 BUT Not on the PW3 Same books....

Are you saying that, when you display the list of reading progress options, page number is not amongst them?

[Barbara1955]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Are you saying that, when you display the list of reading progress options, page number is not amongst them?

YES Ebooks Direct from Amazon.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Katie1

YES Ebooks Direct from Amazon.

If you're seeing page numbers on a book on your Fire tablet, but not on the same book on an eInk Kindle, there's something wrong. I'd suggest contacting Kindle customer service for assistance.

[carol0525]

I solved the issue of kindle books lacking page quite easily. I do Not Buy kindle books. I spend admittedly way too much monthly on books ($300-400). I won't buy kindle until they have page numbers. Yes, you can say I'm old fashioned. I don't care. It's a convenience, comfort for me. I'm sure Amazon doesn't miss me.

[crich70]

The problem with page #'s is that they are dependent on how many pages there are in a given book, and that depends at least in part on the size and type of the font that is being used. In one font/size a book may have 50 pages for example but that same book may have 75 pages in a slightly larger font or 35 pages in a slightly smaller font. So how can having a page numbered be a real help? I grant you that having a page # is useful in paper books such as when a teacher tells the class to turn to a particular page in a textbook but with ebooks it isn't as stable a measure.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by carol0525

I solved the issue of kindle books lacking page quite easily. I do Not Buy kindle books. I spend admittedly way too much monthly on books ($300-400). I won't buy kindle until they have page numbers. Yes, you can say I'm old fashioned. I don't care. It's a convenience, comfort for me. I'm sure Amazon doesn't miss me.

I'm sure that they won't, but--what's the reasoning here? I'm not typecasting this as old-fashioned, but if much of your consumption is fiction/literature, may I ask why you care about page numbers? Given that there isn't a device still standing that doesn't have bookmarking, both manual and automatic, highlighting, etc.? Why does this bother you?

I'd also note that surely, you've noticed that a number of K books now feature "real page numbers," even though those are fairly useless. Do you care, really, if a page number says "48" versus 1213? Each screen (page) on a Kindle book has a new location number, in sequence, from start to finish, just like a print book. Why is using page numbers that are slightly different than what you are accustomed to unacceptable?

Originally Posted by crich70

The problem with page #'s is that they are dependent on how many pages there are in a given book, and that depends at least in part on the size and type of the font that is being used. In one font/size a book may have 50 pages for example but that same book may have 75 pages in a slightly larger font or 35 pages in a slightly smaller font. So how can having a page numbered be a real help? I grant you that having a page # is useful in paper books such as when a teacher tells the class to turn to a particular page in a textbook but with ebooks it isn't as stable a measure.

Exactly this. We make books day in, day out. We've made more than 3,000 books in the last few years. When we do non-fiction that has indices, we'll create "real page numbers." Now, there's only one decent way to do this. We embed an invisible target, at the exact same location as the original top-of-page. That target is something like this "page_20." Then, if the user wants to look up elements from the index, we've created links that go to those same tops-of-pages. Functionally, it's the same as how a print index works. You look in the index, you click a link, and you're taken to the original page.

However, the difference in how this works is, in a print book, you put your thumb/finger in the index, you see the page number, you flip to it, and you skim the page with your eyes. You find the relevant text; you read it, and then you flip back to the index.

But in an eBook, it's a bit different. A printed book page will take up anywhere from 3-5 "pages" (screens) in an eBook. That means that when you click the link, and you leap to the top of the original page. But then, you may have to scroll through 2, 3, 4 or even 5 screens, to find what you were seeking.

It's cumbersome at best. Now, the alternative is to link directly to the relevant text--but that makes the target text display in blue (as do all link targets).

There's another issue, regarding the back/forth between indices and the targets, which I've detailed in another thread, here on MR. If anyone's interested, I'll look it up and link it here. I doubt anyone is.

Question--those of you saying that you won't buy or read Amazon books, due to lack of page numbers--do you buy/read ePUBs? From B&N, or ...? The reason I ask is, the faux page numbers created by ADE-based/originated aren't any more "real page numbers" than are the Location numbers that are created and displayed on a Kindle device.

So, if you are buying and reading ADE-based eBooks, are those more acceptable because they limit their page numbers to 3 digits, basically? Or...why are those books, with their faux page numbers, more acceptable than Kindle books, with locations? I'm genuinely curious about this aspect.

Hitch

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I'm sure that they won't, but--what's the reasoning here? I'm not typecasting this as old-fashioned, but if much of your consumption is fiction/literature, may I ask why you care about page numbers? Given that there isn't a device still standing that doesn't have bookmarking, both manual and automatic, highlighting, etc.? Why does this bother you?

I'd also note that surely, you've noticed that a number of K books now feature "real page numbers," even though those are fairly useless. Do you care, really, if a page number says "48" versus 1213? Each screen (page) on a Kindle book has a new location number, in sequence, from start to finish, just like a print book. Why is using page numbers that are slightly different than what you are accustomed to unacceptable?



Exactly this. We make books day in, day out. We've made more than 3,000 books in the last few years. When we do non-fiction that has indices, we'll create "real page numbers." Now, there's only one decent way to do this. We embed an invisible target, at the exact same location as the original top-of-page. That target is something like this "page_20." Then, if the user wants to look up elements from the index, we've created links that go to those same tops-of-pages. Functionally, it's the same as how a print index works. You look in the index, you click a link, and you're taken to the original page.

However, the difference in how this works is, in a print book, you put your thumb/finger in the index, you see the page number, you flip to it, and you skim the page with your eyes. You find the relevant text; you read it, and then you flip back to the index.

But in an eBook, it's a bit different. A printed book page will take up anywhere from 3-5 "pages" (screens) in an eBook. That means that when you click the link, and you leap to the top of the original page. But then, you may have to scroll through 2, 3, 4 or even 5 screens, to find what you were seeking.

It's cumbersome at best. Now, the alternative is to link directly to the relevant text--but that makes the target text display in blue (as do all link targets).

There's another issue, regarding the back/forth between indices and the targets, which I've detailed in another thread, here on MR. If anyone's interested, I'll look it up and link it here. I doubt anyone is.

Question--those of you saying that you won't buy or read Amazon books, due to lack of page numbers--do you buy/read ePUBs? From B&N, or ...? The reason I ask is, the faux page numbers created by ADE-based/originated aren't any more "real page numbers" than are the Location numbers that are created and displayed on a Kindle device.

So, if you are buying and reading ADE-based eBooks, are those more acceptable because they limit their page numbers to 3 digits, basically? Or...why are those books, with their faux page numbers, more acceptable than Kindle books, with locations? I'm genuinely curious about this aspect.

Hitch

Adding to your post.
Page numbers don't even correspond between different versions of a paper book. So they are only useful for the exact book that you are using. A hardcover and a soft cover would be different.

Oh and the older I get, the more useful I find bookmarks as opposed to trying to remember where I was in a book.