Months of Runaround From KDP Support: Font Embedding Fails...HELP!

[Notjohn]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Only in KF8, Nj. Which is to say, only partly. When I say, supported, I mean, readable across the entire pantheon of Amazon devices. And it's not merely the old KF7's, K4iPad and Cloud Reader won't display embedded fonts, either, which are required for unsupported languages.

I don't suppose Amazon ever sold the old devices in JP.

Perhaps Jeff Bezos should just emulate Tim Cook and cut the diehards off without a backward glance....

[Doitsu]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Dunno. As I said--no fonts, no languages above and beyond what's already supported. And L-t-r is also only doable on KF8.

AFAIK, my K3 came with the code2000 font, which includes most CJK characters, Cyrillic characters and even some Conscript characters.
AFAIK, both Caecilia and Helvetica Neue also natively support Russian characters and accented Greek characters.
I.e., even without code2000 older Kindles should at least support Russian and classical Greek.

If you still have a K1 or K2 lying around, you can test the actual font coverage with my simple mobi7 test file.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Doitsu

AFAIK, my K3 came with the code2000 font, which includes most CJK characters, Cyrillic characters and even some Conscript characters.
AFAIK, both Caecilia and Helvetica Neue also natively support Russian characters and accented Greek characters.
I.e., even without code2000 older Kindles should at least support Russian and classical Greek.

If you still have a K1 or K2 lying around, you can test the actual font coverage with my simple mobi7 test file.

Doits:

I will if you insist, but we do Cyrillic books all the time for a Russian client of ours. I have a K2 right here, and I am 99.9999999% sure that Cyrillic isn't supported in K, K2, DX. I'm nearly as sure that it's equally unsupported in K4iPad and KCR. Last time I looked, the vast bulk of K3's were KF8, for all intents and purposes, no?

And I'm always checking this stuff, because one of the really delightful experiences of being a commercial bookmaker is having prospective clients tell you that you're STUPID, because OBVIOUSLY, Amazon supports Cyrillic or (insert language here), because they SEE THEM on the damn website! Doesn't matter how many times you tell them, "yabbut...," you just get to have that special moment, when you're told that you're stupid, illiterate, ill-informed, you name it. (Yes, I'm having one of those mornings RIGHT NOW.) Not as much fun as the guy who told me that I didn't know what I was doing about (something), because he, too, saw it RIGHT THERE in the Look Inside the Book! (For the PRINT EDITION, of course....)

I mean...listen, for all you guys (and the occasional gal) making eBooks for yourselves, or a specific clientele that's going to buy a book from a website, great (like our Russian client). But at the moment, the books we make have to have backwards compatibility. And that means, for anything that's not vanilla, no embedded font support = no book. Especially as I'm not really that enthused about having my knuckles rapped by Amazon for putting out a book that I know doesn't work correctly across their pantheon of devices.

But, hey...I'll bow out of this one.

Hitch

[Doitsu]

Thanks for verifying this. It looks like Amazon introduced code2000 and the CJK fonts with the K3 models.
I.e., K1, K2 and DX owners won't be able to read Russian or CJK books without font hacks.
At least the latest iOS, Android and Kindle for PC apps apparently support Russian and CJK without embedded fonts.

Originally Posted by Hitch

OBVIOUSLY, Amazon supports Cyrillic or (insert language here), because they SEE THEM on the damn website!

Actually, Russian owners of 5.6.x firmware Kindles have one advantage over readers in other countries. They get automatic hyphenation for Amazon-bought and side-loaded KF8 books.
I guess Lab126 must have at least one Russian-speaking guy on their team who enabled hyphenation for Russian Kindle books.

Originally Posted by Hitch

I mean...listen, for all you guys (and the occasional gal) making eBooks for yourselves, or a specific clientele that's going to buy a book from a website, great (like our Russian client). But at the moment, the books we make have to have backwards compatibility. And that means, for anything that's not vanilla, no embedded font support = no book.

I really don't envy you. IMHO, it'd be best if Amazon introduced a special metadata entry that marks a book as a KF8-only edition.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Doitsu

Thanks for verifying this. It looks like Amazon introduced code2000 and the CJK fonts with the K3 models.
I.e., K1, K2 and DX owners won't be able to read Russian or CJK books without font hacks.

At least the latest iOS, Android and Kindle for PC apps apparently support Russian and CJK without embedded fonts.

Are you sure? K4PC/Mac, yes...but I'm still not seeing embedded fonts in K4iOS...of course, I haven't looked in the last few weeks. And Cloud Reader hasn't had fonts, ever. I'll have to test it.

Actually, Russian owners of 5.6.x firmware Kindles have one advantage over readers in other countries. They get automatic hyphenation for Amazon-bought and side-loaded KF8 books.
I guess Lab126 must have at least one Russian-speaking guy on their team who enabled hyphenation for Russian Kindle books.

Given all the agita that we saw in that other thread, about hyphenation woes, I might just pass on that. ;-)

I really don't envy you. IMHO, it'd be best if Amazon introduced a special metadata entry that marks a book as a KF8-only edition.

I don't envy me, either, <g>. Yes, you know, that's not a bad idea. I wonder how I can pitch it to them, in such a way that they'd go for it? IOW, how could I pitch it in a fashion that would prevent it from being abused by those who don't know enough to use it correctly? Hmmmm....

Hitch

[Doitsu]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Are you sure? K4PC/Mac, yes...but I'm still not seeing embedded fonts in K4iOS...of course, I haven't looked in the last few weeks.

What I meant is that there's no need to embed Cyrillic or CJK fonts, because the Kindle apps will display books with Cyrillic/CJK characters fine without them, if you side-load Mobi7 files, which is the lowest common denominator.

[Little.Egret]

Originally Posted by Hitch

{...}
But at the moment, the books we make have to have backwards compatibility. And that means, for anything that's not vanilla, no embedded font support = no book. Especially as I'm not really that enthused about having my knuckles rapped by Amazon for putting out a book that I know doesn't work correctly across their pantheon of devices.

But, hey...I'll bow out of this one.

Hitch

Huh ?

Amazon are quite happy to have ebooks that are flagged as "Available on these devices" so if you do that you will be spared knuckle-rapping (grin) and someone who hasn't at least one compatible device will find difficulty in buying.

Losing the K1/K2 DX owners won't affect your market much so silver now and golden when the iPad app works (which if HDX is OK shouldn't be long).

Is there a freebie or download that can be used to check ?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Little.Egret

Huh ?

Amazon are quite happy to have ebooks that are flagged as "Available on these devices" so if you do that you will be spared knuckle-rapping (grin) and someone who hasn't at least one compatible device will find difficulty in buying.

Actually, no: that's only for Fixed-layout books, and, IF you are a mainstream publisher, yes, there's a way to flag books as suitable for XX devices. That's not available for any Indy publisher unless/until the book is made in FXL, e.g., Comix or Kids' Books, etc. You can't take a regular, reflowable book--e.g., one made with Cyrillic--and annotate it as "best viewed on KF8" if you are an Indy publisher.

Losing the K1/K2 DX owners won't affect your market much so silver now and golden when the iPad app works (which if HDX is OK shouldn't be long).

I think you'd be surprised. I conducted a poll, on a major reader's mailing list, and by and large, nearly half still had K2's. This reading list is thousands of people--not hundreds.

Is there a freebie or download that can be used to check ?

To check for what, exactly?

Hitch

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I think you'd be surprised. I conducted a poll, on a major reader's mailing list, and by and large, nearly half still had K2's. This reading list is thousands of people--not hundreds.

When was that, as a matter of interest?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by HarryT

When was that, as a matter of interest?

I don't know, Harry--about 12, 16 months back, give or take?

I also tend to do a very non-scientific, casual poll of our clients. I ask them what devices they have. Most don't have the Fire, the HD, HDX, etc. Most have K2's, DXes, K3's, PPW's (very popular), and the like.

Granted...maybe I'm over-sensitive to it. But Amazon seems to think it's still quite important, and I do speak to them relatively often. (I don't know if that's true. I don't know if my "relatively" is often, compared to other formatters and/or publishers, but...it seems often enough to me.) I find that the rush to dismiss the KF7 format is premature, caveat: as near as I can tell.

Warning: utterly unscientific polls conducted here!!! ;-) Just things like "what reader do you have," or "what reader do you use most, if you have more than one," etc.

I don't claim to be the Great and Powerful Oz, but the KF7's seem to still be keepin' on, keepin' on, thus far.

I'd also note that for myself, I read on the Voyage, most often. Of all the devices I have. That's KF8, yes; but I use it mostly because it's light and convenient, and I read a lot. Because it was cheap, I didn't bother with an Otterbox for it, unlike everything else, so, it's quite light to read upon for my old-bag wrists--which sorely deserve a break at the end of the day, when I've been pounding on a keyboard for 10 hours a day. I don't use the K2, primarily because of battery life. I'd use it if it lasted as long as the Voyage or PPW.

I use the Fire when my Voyage peters out, if the PPW isn't handy, OR (this is important) when reading non-fiction that has a lot of images--the clarity of the tables, etc., is better, IMHO, on the Fire. Or...more visible, I guess, against a white background.

Offered solely FWIW.

Hitch

[Notjohn]

I am reminded of the New York City lady who was surprised that Reagan won: "I don't know ANY Republicans!"

Me, I don't know anyone who owns a K2. If it's truly half the readership of any mailing list, surely the e-book format is doomed, doomed, doomed. Amazon has sold only half as many K3s, PWs, Fires etc etc etc as it did the K2? Say it ain't so!

(My wife uses the old K3 Keyboard, which indeed is still giving good service. I much prefer the Fire HD. It's so much faster, especially looking at images, and anyhow I can check my email from time to time.)

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

I am reminded of the New York City lady who was surprised that Reagan won: "I don't know ANY Republicans!"

In NY, she probably doesn't. At least, not in the boroughs. The City and the outlying bedroom communities, sure. But the boroughs? Nah.

Me, I don't know anyone who owns a K2. If it's truly half the readership of any mailing list, surely the e-book format is doomed, doomed, doomed. Amazon has sold only half as many K3s, PWs, Fires etc etc etc as it did the K2? Say it ain't so!

Why would you say it's doomed? Because they read on older devices? Don't see how that works. Amazon will of course phase out the KF7 over time, but not until they figure out how to make AZK=KF8 (really, not "faux" equal) and KCR as well. Frankly, having to figure out what to do for KF7 as well as KF8 keeps us on our toes. And let's not forget--the LITB is KF7, too, for all intents and purposes.

(My wife uses the old K3 Keyboard, which indeed is still giving good service. I much prefer the Fire HD. It's so much faster, especially looking at images, and anyhow I can check my email from time to time.)

QED, no? She has a device, she likes it, and sees no need to replace it. I would have done the same thing with my K2, had I not had a professional need to buy other devices. (Well...to be honest, that and battery life, I'd say.)

Hitch

[Notjohn]

If nobody's buying these devices, then the readership isn't expanding. This would actually track my experience, where my sales began to decline in January 2012, after Kindle Select had begun to take hold and the number of KDP self-pubbers expanded exponentially.

The number of device owners was always small. Apps (deleted) help expand readership to the legions of tablet owners, but they (I!) have lots of other options. When I go skiing in December, I plan to watch the second season of The Blacklist, tee hee.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

If nobody's buying these devices, then the readership isn't expanding. This would actually track my experience, where my sales began to decline in January 2012, after Kindle Select had begun to take hold and the number of KDP self-pubbers expanded exponentially.

The number of device owners was always small. Apps no help help expand readership to the legions of tablet owners, but they (I!) have lots of other options. When I go skiing in December, I plan to watch the second season of The Blacklist, tee hee.

NJ:

I don't think that "nobody" is buying the new devices; I simply think that lots of readers are holding on to their older devices, and not junking them. OR, for that matter, they're reselling them, and the new owners are holding onto them. Unlike Apple devices, which seem to be subject to the slings and arrows of "coolness," Kindle devices just keep on trucking, apparently.

If it's true that tablet and smartphone owner-/readership is expanding, that's even more reason to pay attention to the fallback KF7 styling.

Juz sayin'!

Hitch

[ASterling]

Holy mackerel! That's some Cyrillic there!

I freely admit I don't understand much of the technical discussion ...

Update from class this a.m. - one student stated he thought all textbooks would be digital in 10 years' time. But I think, more students might have said that 10 years ago than now --

With the textbook people, their production departments are 100% oriented toward print and paper. They use INDD but I don't think too many are using Adobe CC. Most want the older versions and they have the older systems. They are definitely hostile to Amazon and have big trouble adjusting. I don't think it's just the "cheapest alternative," it's poor communications all along the line. I first discovered the "problem" while looking on Adobe Forums and seeing production managers for big textbook companies complaining and sniping back and forth with Amazon and Adobe people.

You have so much knowledge Hitch ...

If even an AVERAGE textbook version could be made to work, I still think it is a lot of money. I have just now myself noticed the download charge relationship so ... optimizing for file size is also important. It is just so complicated ...