EU Piracy Report

[frahse]

Originally Posted by crich70

I think there is no 'one size fits all' model for piracy. Some don't want to pay at all, some can't afford, some can't get a product legally for whatever reason, etc. Probably there are as many reasons for it as there are people doing it.

I think that once a person learns how to, and starts pirating then that option is generally applied on all media.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by frahse

I think that once a person learns how to, and starts pirating then that option is generally applied on all media.

Why do you think that? Do you think that people are generally dishonest? I know how to pirate, as do many people. I still buy all of my books, movies, and music.

I reject the premise that all, or even most people would pirate if they "knew how to". If that were true, there would be no market for any sort of digital media.

Shari

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by shalym

Why do you think that? Do you think that people are generally dishonest? I know how to pirate, as do many people. I still buy all of my books, movies, and music.

I reject the premise that all, or even most people would pirate if they "knew how to". If that were true, there would be no market for any sort of digital media.

Shari

I read it more as once a person starts pirating in one media, that person will pirate in all medias.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I read it more as once a person starts pirating in one media, that person will pirate in all medias.

I don't think that is true either. Is every former Napster user now pirating movies?

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

I don't think that is true either. Is every former Napster user now pirating movies?

An interesting question. The answer, of course, is no since statistics would indicate that a fair number of Napster users have gone to the great bit bucket in the sky and would not be pirating anymore -- unless of course, that hypothetical afterlife is even stranger than anyone has imagined.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by DNSB

An interesting question. The answer, of course, is no since statistics would indicate that a fair number of Napster users have gone to the great bit bucket in the sky and would not be pirating anymore -- unless of course, that hypothetical afterlife is even stranger than anyone has imagined.

The idea that copyright exists in afterlife where time as such supposedly does not exist, is exceedingly strange indeed.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

I don't think that is true either. Is every former Napster user now pirating movies?

Have you checked youtube? Quite a few, not out of copyright movies there. For several years, it was one of the few places you could find a copy of Sands of Iwo Jima. Prior to the movie streaming services, there were a lot more people who pirated movies via BitTorrent.

IMPO, the biggest thing that counters piracy is the availability of the work via legit channels. Services like iTunes, Netflix and Amazon Video makes movie piracy very much a fringe activity. Same for music. Same for ebooks. You have some groups that pirate for cultural reasons, but for the most part,

[frahse]

Originally Posted by shalym

Why do you think that? Do you think that people are generally dishonest? I know how to pirate, as do many people. I still buy all of my books, movies, and music.

I reject the premise that all, or even most people would pirate if they "knew how to". If that were true, there would be no market for any sort of digital media.

Shari

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I read it more as once a person starts pirating in one media, that person will pirate in all medias.

pwalker8 has ascertained more closely the meaning of my statement.

It is only common sense to realize that to pirate one must know how and then have the opportunity and finally a desire or need to do it.

Still as shalym indicates there is more to the act than simply a skill. There will be and must be also choices made on when and how to apply that skill.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by frahse

pwalker8 has ascertained more closely the meaning of my statement.

It is only common sense to realize that to pirate one must know how and then have the opportunity and finally a desire or need to do it.

Still as shalym indicates there is more to the act than simply a skill. There will be and must be also choices made on when and how to apply that skill.

Y'know....I honestly don't know a boatload of folks who would call themselves a pirate, in my circle of acquaintances. A few, yes, but mostly, no; obviously, given my avocation, it would be at best peculiar if I were to hang out with pirates.

So, my view is naturally a bit one-sided. Nonetheless--and I believe I've spoken about this before, on MR--when I first entered into the line of work I'm in now (eBook making/production), I was surprised to find out just how bloody dishonest people ARE. I spent decades in the Real Estate Development biz (which always incites people to talk about dealing with gangsters, [corrupt] unions, and other unsavory criminal types), and I never--never--deal with so much dishonesty in my life, as I do now.

The first few years I had my (bookmaking) biz, I had it set up to be pay upon completion. Within a few short years, I had to chuck that idea entirely. Over the course of two years, I was ripped off, by customers, to the tune of $10-$12K--per year. I was...positively shocked, that just because the product was digital, that people thought it was perfectly okay to just take their books and not pay us. But they DID.

So, then, I decided that okay, they'd pay the base formatting fees, as quoted, and I'd invoice for AA (Author amendments) upon completion. After all, how badly could that go? Suffice to say: very. As of the first of the new year, we changed our policies over, and within the FIRST QUARTER, I'd already been ripped off for more than $2500.00.

So--you guys can sit there and talk about how there are all these people who "know how" to pirate digital media, and how that doesn't mean that they will, necessarily, steal it--but from my perspective, the people that I've dealt with, over the last decade, are far more likely to rip me off than any gangster or dirtbag I ever dealt with when I was building hotels, office buildings, etc. And that's saying something.

It's patently obvious to me that:

1. The anonymity afforded by the Internet seems to make people inherently less compelled to honesty;
2. That people have ZERO respect for anything in digital format, and,
3. Less respect than that for the TIME that someone puts in, creating/crafting that digital product.

I have precisely ZERO reason to believe that people are "basically" or "essentially" honest. I used to think that--and now, I don't. Not in any way close to how I used to believe it.

And it's not just us, not just my business. My traditional print-layout clients, ALL--repeat, ALL--have me watermark the eBooks that we give them, to give to their clients. Why? Because those clients will take their PDF interiors, walk off, and, whoops!--"forget" to pay. Forever. Other eBookmakers? Every single one I know that's been in biz for more than 5 minutes insists on payment upfront, for the exact same reasons that I do. They've ALL been ripped off--and ripped off a LOT.

So--you guys can sit there and tell yourselves that authors, publishers, etc., all suffer this de minimis amount of thievery--oh, right, "copyright infringement"--and all that, but my actual, real-life experience says that it's anything but minor.

I hope that none of you have to deal with the amount of theft and non-payment that I've had to deal with--and those people were, basically, ripping me off to my face. So to speak. Work that was done, on a custom basis, for THEM and only them. Not even remotely in the same category as one digital copy of a book. But, blithely steal it/them, they did.

How honest do you REALLY THINK that anonymous users, on the Net, are going to be, for some author, publisher, whatever, that will never know who they are? What, MORE honest than my customers, who knew that they were stealing actual, custom work, done for them, by someone that they'd MET? Yeah...right, sure they will.

Before I got into this line of work, I'd have argued that just because someone knows HOW to do it, doesn't mean that they will. Now?

Now I'd say that given the opportunity, it seems that many absolutely, positively WILL take a digital product sans payment and justify it to themselves however they have to--but they'll steal it. Period. And if the opportunity doesn't present itself? Well, then, apparently, they'll read this or that website, find out how to circumvent DRM, etc., and they'll create the opportunity.


Hitch

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Y'know....I honestly don't know a boatload of folks who would call themselves a pirate, in my circle of acquaintances. A few, yes, but mostly, no; obviously, given my avocation, it would be at best peculiar if I were to hang out with pirates.

So, my view is naturally a bit one-sided. Nonetheless--and I believe I've spoken about this before, on MR--when I first entered into the line of work I'm in now (eBook making/production), I was surprised to find out just how bloody dishonest people ARE. I spent decades in the Real Estate Development biz (which always incites people to talk about dealing with gangsters, [corrupt] unions, and other unsavory criminal types), and I never--never--deal with so much dishonesty in my life, as I do now.

The first few years I had my (bookmaking) biz, I had it set up to be pay upon completion. Within a few short years, I had to chuck that idea entirely. Over the course of two years, I was ripped off, by customers, to the tune of $10-$12K--per year. I was...positively shocked, that just because the product was digital, that people thought it was perfectly okay to just take their books and not pay us. But they DID.

So, then, I decided that okay, they'd pay the base formatting fees, as quoted, and I'd invoice for AA (Author amendments) upon completion. After all, how badly could that go? Suffice to say: very. As of the first of the new year, we changed our policies over, and within the FIRST QUARTER, I'd already been ripped off for more than $2500.00.

So--you guys can sit there and talk about how there are all these people who "know how" to pirate digital media, and how that doesn't mean that they will, necessarily, steal it--but from my perspective, the people that I've dealt with, over the last decade, are far more likely to rip me off than any gangster or dirtbag I ever dealt with when I was building hotels, office buildings, etc. And that's saying something.

It's patently obvious to me that:

1. The anonymity afforded by the Internet seems to make people inherently less compelled to honesty;
2. That people have ZERO respect for anything in digital format, and,
3. Less respect than that for the TIME that someone puts in, creating/crafting that digital product.

I have precisely ZERO reason to believe that people are "basically" or "essentially" honest. I used to think that--and now, I don't. Not in any way close to how I used to believe it.

And it's not just us, not just my business. My traditional print-layout clients, ALL--repeat, ALL--have me watermark the eBooks that we give them, to give to their clients. Why? Because those clients will take their PDF interiors, walk off, and, whoops!--"forget" to pay. Forever. Other eBookmakers? Every single one I know that's been in biz for more than 5 minutes insists on payment upfront, for the exact same reasons that I do. They've ALL been ripped off--and ripped off a LOT.

So--you guys can sit there and tell yourselves that authors, publishers, etc., all suffer this de minimis amount of thievery--oh, right, "copyright infringement"--and all that, but my actual, real-life experience says that it's anything but minor.

I hope that none of you have to deal with the amount of theft and non-payment that I've had to deal with--and those people were, basically, ripping me off to my face. So to speak. Work that was done, on a custom basis, for THEM and only them. Not even remotely in the same category as one digital copy of a book. But, blithely steal it/them, they did.

How honest do you REALLY THINK that anonymous users, on the Net, are going to be, for some author, publisher, whatever, that will never know who they are? What, MORE honest than my customers, who knew that they were stealing actual, custom work, done for them, by someone that they'd MET? Yeah...right, sure they will.

Before I got into this line of work, I'd have argued that just because someone knows HOW to do it, doesn't mean that they will. Now?

Now I'd say that given the opportunity, it seems that many absolutely, positively WILL take a digital product sans payment and justify it to themselves however they have to--but they'll steal it. Period. And if the opportunity doesn't present itself? Well, then, apparently, they'll read this or that website, find out how to circumvent DRM, etc., and they'll create the opportunity.


Hitch

Not bookmaking but crafts in general seem to have a big rip off factor. That is why I took to getting at least 50% upfront and in a couple of cases 100 % upfront.
The ones that were the 100% were people that had ripped off other services and they chose awful colors I couldn't resell.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Not bookmaking but crafts in general seem to have a big rip off factor. That is why I took to getting at least 50% upfront and in a couple of cases 100 % upfront.
The ones that were the 100% were people that had ripped off other services and they chose awful colors I couldn't resell.

Well, really--it's not like you can resell a custom Book job, either, ya know?

I seriously think it's just the Net. People feel that, hell, I'm ripping off some wo/man that's 2500 miles away, they can't/won't sue me, "[They are] protected" from retribution or legal action, so, eff it, they rip you off. That's my experience.

Hitch

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Well, really--it's not like you can resell a custom Book job, either, ya know?

I seriously think it's just the Net. People feel that, hell, I'm ripping off some wo/man that's 2500 miles away, they can't/won't sue me, "[They are] protected" from retribution or legal action, so, eff it, they rip you off. That's my experience.

Hitch

I think in any walk of life, some people will rip off what they think they are entitled too.
Examples include babysitting, crafts (because you weren't doing anything anyway), digital anything (for reasons you gave), etc.
Or pretty much any work done by hand.

I am sure you have heard this one: "since you don't have a "real" job, you should do this for me because I don't have the time and want it."
That one always got eye rolls.

Now the funniest thing I ever heard was "my children HAVE to watch the Disney channel."
I didn't need the babysitting money: she needed the babysitter because her unemployed husband couldn't watch the kids. (Someone might call him with a job offer.)
I just looked at the kids and said get back in the car. I can't babysit you.
Strangely enough, the kids had a fabulous time doing crafts and did not miss the Disney channel.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

I think in any walk of life, some people will rip off what they think they are entitled too.
Examples include babysitting, crafts (because you weren't doing anything anyway), digital anything (for reasons you gave), etc.
Or pretty much any work done by hand.

I am sure you have heard this one: "since you don't have a "real" job, you should do this for me because I don't have the time and want it."
That one always got eye rolls.

<snippage>

I dunno. I guess that I've never had an issue getting paid by clients--even through nearly two decades of being an independent consultant--even working for RE Developers (who are not notoriously, uh, religious about paying folks on time or at all), etc., until this line of work. Given the way that most people seem to think that I worked with/for/around scumbags, for most of my life, versus what I do now, the irony is hardly lost on me.

Nope...my experience of being ripped-off is pretty heavily ALL books, ALL the time.

(The "you don't have a real job so your time isn't valuable" thing is something that every home-based worker, employee, etc., has always dealt with. People are @$$holes.)

Hitch

[JSWolf]

Geo-restrictions can lead to piracy. Some people try to legally purchase an eBook and find it's available, just not to them because of where they live. So they go try to find it and they find it plus other eBooks and it goes from there.

I know there are ways around these restrictions, but you have to know them and piracy is a lot easier if you don't know the ways around geo-restrictions. Imagine you are reading a series where the book you've read ends in a way that to finish the story arc, you need the next book. You go to Amazon, Kobo, Google, or Apple and try to buy it. You cannot find it. You then look up online to see if it's an eBook and it is. You then find at some eBookstore and it's not available for you to purchase. You then search again and find it. You click the link and go to a site where you can get it for free. That's the start.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I dunno. I guess that I've never had an issue getting paid by clients--even through nearly two decades of being an independent consultant--even working for RE Developers (who are not notoriously, uh, religious about paying folks on time or at all), etc., until this line of work. Given the way that most people seem to think that I worked with/for/around scumbags, for most of my life, versus what I do now, the irony is hardly lost on me.

Nope...my experience of being ripped-off is pretty heavily ALL books, ALL the time.

(The "you don't have a real job so your time isn't valuable" thing is something that every home-based worker, employee, etc., has always dealt with. People are @$$holes.)

Hitch

Hitch, people are trained to be jerks. Who does it? Why <we> do. Consider the following. . .

How much do individuals pay for Over The Air (OTA) radio? Nothing.
How much do individuals pay for OTA Television? Correct, nothing.

That's an awful lot of canalization. . . People trained from birth to get entertainment for free. Do you wonder why people keep those bad habits for other entertainment?