The Vent and Rant Thread

[WT Sharpe]

It's been my experience that many of the native Hawaiians are inwardly resentful of the newcomers—and who can blame them?

[wodin]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

It's been my experience that many of the native Hawaiians are inwardly resentful of the newcomers—and who can blame them?

Yes, after all; Haoles brought them all the scourges of civilization, like medicine and education and transportation and electricity and a non-feudal system of government.

Who would want any of that when they could be living an idyllic life in a grass shack eating fish and poi by firelight?

[ProfCrash]

Wow

Or they could argue that the new arrivals brought new plants and animals that have wiped out the vast majority of the indiegious plants and animals. Not to mention changes to their culture, language, and traditions. They lost their native lands and were treated poorly, like most Native populations in the US and across the globe.

Perhaps there are Native Hawaiians who take pride in their culture and heritage and would have prefered to allow their traditions and culture dictate how their government and lives changed over time instead of being forced to change.

[wodin]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

... Perhaps there are Native Hawaiians who take pride in their culture and heritage...

Yes there are, and rightfully so, but I've never met a single one of them who would choose to move to Niihau. And most Niihau residents who attend school on O`ahu choose to not return.

[Rumpelteazer]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

In countries that follow Confucian societal models, strangers on the street simply do not even exist, so why would one hold a door open? On the other hand, they WILL hold a door for a friend or relative, or someone that they have already been introduced to. Crowds behave more like a giant game of Bumper Pool, with people bouncing off other people at crowded intersections. They just aren't aware that there are others around...
Really bizarre from a western perspective...

Stitchawl

That's basically how a Saturday afternoon in my city is; everybody ignoring each other and bumping against one another and cursing the person the person they bumped into.

Today I had another rude customer, after he left we had a nice exchange of experiences with rude customers with the owner of the nearest coffee (as in canabis) shop who was in our store. I always have to laugh when he's in the store because he looks like a businessman, always wearing a suit, whilst employees/owners of other local coffee shops always look like, well, stoners.

[Freeshadow]

I wonder how "strangers don't exist" & "don't loose your face" go along.
Strangers either don't matter at all or they do at least marginally, so why should it be of importance what the anonymous homo sapiens opinion about me is.

Stitch? whadda you say about that? am plainly curious.

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

I wonder how "strangers don't exist" & "don't loose your face" go along.
Strangers either don't matter at all or they do at least marginally, so why should it be of importance what the anonymous homo sapiens opinion about me is.

Stitch? whadda you say about that? am plainly curious.

Two things. First, the concept of 'loosing face' isn't as strong in in Japan as most people think. It's far, far, FAR more important in Thailand or China. In Thailand, causing someone to lose face can get you killed...

People that you haven't been introduced to or spoken to (what I am calling strangers) don't 'exist' on a one-to-one level. You can't loose face to someone who isn't there. This must be seen as different from losing face over something that occurs between governments. Perhaps the members of the government have never met before, but they still recognize the existence of each other. The difference being that one-to-one factor.

One of the somewhat bizarre Japanese cultural aspects is the fact that men can urinate anywhere without feeling the need to step behind a tree for modesty. 11pm around train stations, with salarymen coming home from an evening of drinking with co-workers, presents guys just turning away from the walking crowds and peeing in the streets. NO ONE NOTICES. In America, you would get arrested for public urination, and perhaps Indecent Exposure. In Japan, NO ONE NOTICES so how can you get arrested? It's not that people 'ignore' these things. They really don't see them, because they haven't met the person or spoken to him. He's just not there. And you can't lose face to someone who isn't there.

Think along the lines of Royalty in a middle ages had servants to deal with all aspects of life that they didn't wish to handle. The servants were always around, but never 'seen.' A man and woman might be making mad and furious love in bed, and paying no attention to the fact that the servants were standing by to administer a warm wet cloth afterwards.

Even today, people speak without reservation despite the fact that the janitor is sweeping nearby, or maid is dusting the furniture. We have lots of 'unseen ones' in today's Western culture, right. We would be absolutely mortified to belch loudly while talking with the Mayor of our town. Would we be embarrassed to belch if there was only a street sweeper behind you? I doubt it. We probably wouldn't even realize he was there...

I'm not sure if this answers you question... If not, please re-state and I'll try again.


Stitchawl

[SneakySnake]

<rant> So I buy a pbook, which is all fine. It is a technical book, and they used to come with cds in the back. this would have meant that I could read it on my computer, and now I would be able to put it on my reader yay!..NO you can't. Now they have that stupid system where you can only read it online on some stupid Safari thingo that doesn't make it easy. - So you may have to take me away in chains, but I go so frustrated with trying to read it on Safari that I downloaded a .pdf copy to read on my computer. I haven't even put it on my reader. I am not selling it or distributing it, but I found the options provided not very good. I paid for the software and I paid for the pbook. I don't even know if I could have purchased an ebook version. Why do I have to feel bad just to use a book? </>

[pholy]

If it is a book about Windows - or any MS software - you most definitely should feel bad about using it.... and dirty, too - go wash your brain

[SneakySnake]

is microsoft press going to come a take me away?

[pholy]

They may already have your soul

That's all they really want

[SneakySnake]

Uncle Bill said everything would be OK.

[nohmi2]

Originally Posted by SneakySnake

Uncle Bill said everything would be OK.

Uncle Bill lied.

You now need an exorcist.

Cheers.

[orlok]

Like your avatar nohmi

[Roger Parkinson]

Originally Posted by wodin

Yes, after all; Haoles brought them all the scourges of civilization, like medicine and education and transportation and electricity and a non-feudal system of government.

Who would want any of that when they could be living an idyllic life in a grass shack eating fish and poi by firelight?

I'm not really up with Hawaiian history but I have heard similar ideas expressed sometimes about our local Maori culture. Maori tend to be poorer than those of European descent so they have the usual problems with alcohol and crime you associate with that income bracket. They also show up more in our welfare dependency stats.

But, here anyway, the argument doesn't work too well. Maori used to be cannibals and used to keep slaves and they didn't have modern medicine, democracy etc. But, when the English first arrived here they (in other parts of the world) kept slaves and there are some odd sailor stories around that time that suggest cannibalism wasn't always off the agenda. And their system of government, while not feudal, sure wasn't recognizably democratic.

The Europeans signed a treaty with Maori and Maori promptly set up successful export businesses. At that stage English medicine was pretty crude and Maori traditional methods were not much worse. Their social welfare system was probably better and their literacy rate was definitely better than the English settlers, Naturally no one had electricity or any mod-cons then.

Subsequent developments were either imported or developed here. Radio, for example, was invented by an Italian, not one of the English settlers. Our social welfare system was developed here by a government elected by both the settlers and Maori (we had universal suffrage very, very early). So it was a joint development, or it would have been except that the English stole most of the Maori land, trashing their export industry and condemning them to poverty.

It's an issue we've been working on the last few decades but it takes a lot of fixing, especially since we're all quite out of the English settler mentality.