Fight Flash Here!

[Trubu]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

So in short, IM won't work like it does on a PC or mac where you can have multiple conversations going while doing a bunch of other stuff?

You can have multiple conversations going; you'll just be getting notifications of new messages from the push service, rather than the IM app continuing to run in the background. Functionally it amounts to the same thing, since you're working in a one-window interface (though I'd guess some of the IM apps will, or already have, implemented some split-view functions for their iPad versions).

[dmaul1114]

Sounds ok, as long as the IM app keeps the whole conversation there when you go back, and not just the last message. Sounds like it could do that with the save state function.

In any case, my real decision will be whether to take these kind of trade offs in an iPad, Android or other limited OS tablet for the long battery life.

Or just take the battery life trade off and get a tablet pc that runs windows.

[Trubu]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Or just take the battery life trade off and get a tablet pc that runs windows.

Anything but that. Tablet devices trying to run desktop OSes are the worst of both worlds, IMO.

[scottjl]

Originally Posted by Trubu

Anything but that. Tablet devices trying to run desktop OSes are the worst of both worlds, IMO.

Apparently most of the public agrees, they've been around for years and never took off with the general public.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Trubu

Anything but that. Tablet devices trying to run desktop OSes are the worst of both worlds, IMO.

I know, they've always sucked in the past and I'm not optimistic any Windows 7 tablets will be that great either.

So I'm hoping Android or something else gets the key things that keep me from buying an iPad like multitasking, PC style file management systems, Flash support etc. right while having slick touch interface like the iPad.

Hopefully someone will make a tablet that caters to the business/academic crowd and not just a tech toy for media consumption.

The iPad is great for just playing around and killing time surfing the net (as long as it's not Flash sites!), reading books, comics, magazines, playing games, watching video etc. But it's just totally lacking as a productivity tool. It would slow me down rather than speed up my research work trying to use it vs. using PCs and printouts as I have for years.

[Trubu]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

key things that keep me from buying an iPad like multitasking

Huh? Weren't we just talking about the multitasking coming to the iPad with the 4.0 OS?

Also:

But it's just totally lacking as a productivity tool.

Depends on what kind of productivity you're talking about - I know I've done a whole lot of server management from the couch over the past month.

[dmaul1114]

Still doesn't sound like true PC style multitasking to me.

Productivity means I need a real file system to manage all my documents, be able to open them from with in any app that supports that file type, have more robust word processing options, integrated stylus support for marking up documents, USB port to make getting my files on and off the device easier etc.

I'm a professor so I want a tablet that I can use as a research tool--with the main function being organizing, reading and marking up A4 PDFs of scholarly journal articles, and marking up word documents.

So I really need a tablet with a screen close to A4 size, good stylus mark up capabilities, and an OS that's not necessarily a full PC OS, but leaning more that way in terms of file system, drag and drop etc.

[frabjous]

Originally Posted by Trubu

I'm curious as to what you find so poor about the iPhone/iPad's HTML 5 support. It does't support everything the desktop Safari does (yet), but it's certainly used to good effect on a number of Google's services sites, MLB, etc. What are you trying to do that it doesn't support?

Please see my post earlier in the thread.

It's just as bad on the mac Desktop version. In fact, the iPhone (not the iPad) version might be better; I've never tested that.

But in short: it prebuffers everything even if the HTML5 attributes tell it not to. Basically this means that if a page has multiple HTML5 tags it'll overwhelm the entire system. I've crashed many macs and iPads testing this. (The people at the store I did the testing at are starting to watch out for me now.) The MP3 codec used also plays many MP3s at the wrong frequency.

i'd hardly say apple is trying to kill adobe.

I didn't say they were trying to kill Adobe.

you're mixing flash applications with flash itself.

How so? You called flash a parasite? How could it be if the applications aren't?

there are plenty of fine flash applications out there, and plenty of junk.

Sounds like the internet in general.

you may not like my choice in terms, but flash is wholly dependant on the operating system and browser for its existence and use. flash is not an operating system, it's not even a browser, and it is very easy to write a browser that doesn't support flash. just look at mobile safari.

Please take the conversation seriously. Did you really think anyone was implying that flash could run without an operating system? The point is, it isn't tied to any particular operating system in particular, and there's nothing even about the iPad OS that makes it incompatible with using flash.

No browsers, except for recent versions of Chrome, were written "in a way that supports flash". Flash is not part of Internet Explorer or Firefox. All modern browsers, however, support plug-ins. Mobile Safari is not written in a way that precludes using it with flash. Apple simply does not allow that particular plug in to be installed on the iPad.

flash needs to hook into the browser to catch a mime type, then hook into the OS to render its content correctly, to catch responses from the user if needed, to store its "super cookies". there's a lot more to flash than just displaying a hulu video.

It seems to me that you are the one being naive. Flash does not require hardware acceleration. "Catching a mime type" is the kind of thing a 10 year old could program in 2 minutes. "Hook into an OS to render its content correctly"--that's just being vague. Of course, it needs to interact with various aspects of the operating system. But these are not large roadblocks, and surely, Adobe would do all the necessary work if it needed to. Apple just won't let them.

this is where your argument fails. who are you to say that apple made the wrong decision?

Who am I to say? Blatantly fallacious ad Hominem. Who I am is unimportant. As for why I think they made the wrong decision, I have already provided arguments.

unless you're steve jobs in disguise of course.

Steve Jobs is not infallible. He is capable of making mistakes. I believe he made a mistake here. I have said why.

and to discard my points as "completely and utterly irrelevant" writes you off as close minded and unable to accept someone else's opinion, the same things you accuse me of.

I said they were irrelevant to the topic of what they should have done, and I explained why. I would be closed minded if I ignored arguments you were giving regarding that topic. But you gave no argument. You just said "it was their choice to make". That simply is not relevant to the topic of whether it was the right choice. It just isn't. That's not being closed minded. It's simple logic.

you sure like to be bossy to your friends. who are you to make the judgement that they spent their money poorly or wisely? it isn't your money. there's a famous quote about judge not.. or another about walking a mile..

You seem to think there's something wrong with my having an opinion. Having an opinion or forming a judgment is one thing. Being an jerk about it is another. That was a hypothetical example. If a friend behaved as I said, out of concern for them I might tell them I think they did the wrong thing. That's not being bossy. It's being a good friend. In the end, the only people hurt by the fact that I can't get my website to work on an iPad are iPad customers. I think Jobs did them a disservice. I am saying so in the context of a discussion on the topic of whether their decision was a good one. I hardly think anyone, except perhaps you, is so thin-skinned that they would be personally insulted by it. I'm sure Steve Jobs doesn't care what I think.

i think you missed the point of microsoft's announcement. they are supporting h.264 as a video delivery system and not flash. the two are competing when it comes to a delivery system.

h.264 is not a delivery system, period.

yes, flash can continue to be used for other types of content, and even for video content, but it won't be natively supported in IE.

IE has never "natively" supported flash. The only browser that has are the newest versions of Chrome (not even released to the public yet).

and as i said, it's just a warning shot, microsoft has silverlight waiting in the wings. microsoft could easily block flash from running on the windows platform and push developers to use silverlight instead. adobe exists not only at apple's whim but microsoft's as well and could be shut out of either platform with a simple update.

I've never said they couldn't do these things. Again, the issue isn't about what could be done, but what should be done.

no, i would have started a "worship steve jobs" thread, but personally i don't like the man, so you won't find me there. i find it funny that if you like apple's products people resort to calling you a "cult member" or say that you "worship steve jobs"

Don't put words in my mouth. I was merely pointing out the irony of starting a thread where people are supposed to "fight" over the flash issue, but then you complain when people take the other side of the fight.

right, but if you expect change, then you ought to be complaining in the appropriate forum. i find it highly unlikely that jobs visits mobileread.

Jobs isn't going to change his mind or take other action until it becomes clear that this issue is hurting his sales. I don't know whether it will or not, but if there's anyone considering buying an iPad, who comes to MobileRead to find out what people think of it, I do admit, I hope they will read my posts about the trouble I've had providing a replacement for flash, and decide it isn't for them, since that is something that might make a difference, it enough people do it enough places.

And for the record, I've already emailed Jobs.

as a few people like to point out, html 5 isn't yet a set-in-stone standard, so guess we'll just have to wait and see what support updates bring us in the future. what browsers do support it 100% at this point?

My needs mentioned in the post I linked above were fairly minimal, and all browsers that support HTML5 audio tags at all (Firefox, Chrome, Opera, etc.) except Safari on the mac/iPad did fine with it.

[Trubu]

Originally Posted by frabjous

But in short: it prebuffers everything even if the HTML5 attributes tell it not to. Basically this means that if a page has multiple HTML5 tags it'll overwhelm the entire system. I've crashed many macs and iPads testing this. (The people at the store I did the testing at are starting to watch out for me now.) The MP3 codec used also plays many MP3s at the wrong frequency.

Chrome also autobuffers video like this - does it not autobuffer audio? Maybe they've changed that in more recent builds.

While this is not an optimal behavior in your case, it doesn't actually disobey the draft spec:

The autobuffer attribute is a boolean attribute. Its presence hints to the user agent that the author believes that the media element will likely be used, even though the element does not have an autoplay attribute. (The attribute has no effect if used in conjunction with the autoplay attribute, though including both is not an error.) This attribute may be ignored altogether.

I can see why you were frustrated, though. FWIW, that behavior can be worked around pretty easily with a JS onclick handler to swap in the tags "on demand."

[Trubu]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Still doesn't sound like true PC style multitasking to me.

That's because it's not - nor should it be, given the resource constraints of a mobile OS, not to mention limited screen real estate. (No reason to have a bunch of windows open and sucking up resources when you can only see one of them at a time, after all.)

If you need PC-style multitasking, you're going to have to get a tablet running a desktop OS. The multitasking in iPhone OS 4, Android, WebOS, and the upcoming Windows Phone 7 essentially comes down to the same thing - keeping certain important processes running in the background, while freezing/killing anything else that the user isn't directly interacting with at the moment.

[scottjl]

an interesting report on flash security, getting worse over the years, not better..

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/how-s...-tell-you/2152

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Trubu

That's because it's not - nor should it be, given the resource constraints of a mobile OS, not to mention limited screen real estate. (No reason to have a bunch of windows open and sucking up resources when you can only see one of them at a time, after all.)

If you need PC-style multitasking, you're going to have to get a tablet running a desktop OS. The multitasking in iPhone OS 4, Android, WebOS, and the upcoming Windows Phone 7 essentially comes down to the same thing - keeping certain important processes running in the background, while freezing/killing anything else that the user isn't directly interacting with at the moment.

Fair enough.

I can do without the multitasking I suppose--I just hope an Android or other tablet makes IM one of the background enabled apps as I'd really like at least the IM to work just like on a PC with being able to keep it on top of what I'm working on etc. Otherwise, I could get by without it.

The bigger thing is just having a real file system, drag and drop file loading, files accessible to all apps just like on a PC, a USB port etc.

I can deal with a stripped down mobile OS if it at least has all that stuff.

If we don't get to that point, then yeah maybe I'll just have to get a full slate PC (don't want a tablet PC with keyboard) for my needs.

I have no interest in a tablet for just media consumption purposes--I don't travel much so my home theater system and laptop cover all those needs. Kindle as well. So for me to buy a tablet it needs to be a lot closer to a PC than the iPad is.

[Trubu]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Fair enough.

I can do without the multitasking I suppose--I just hope an Android or other tablet makes IM one of the background enabled apps as I'd really like at least the IM to work just like on a PC with being able to keep it on top of what I'm working on etc. Otherwise, I could get by without it.

Even a background-enabled app wouldn't do exactly what you want it to - at best, you would get notifications when new messages came in, and you could quickly switch to the IM app. Android has the same one-active-window-visible-at-a-time paradigm as the iPhone, though. Ditto WebOS.

[dmaul1114]

Dang. Like I said, that's not a huge deal breaker. The file system, drag and drop and USB are the bigger issues.

Though my ideal would be something like a tablet version of Windows 7 that was a lot closer to full Windows 7 than Windows 7 phone. i.e. still designed specifically for touch--unlike pas tablet PCs--but offering closer to a full computing experience.

But I figure that (or something like it) is a long ways off. So I'll probably end up with one of the stripped down OS tablets initially. Which ever comes first with an 11-12" screen, user accessible file system etc.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by Trubu

... The multitasking in iPhone OS 4, Android, WebOS, and the upcoming Windows Phone 7 essentially comes down to the same thing - keeping certain important processes running in the background, while freezing/killing anything else that the user isn't directly interacting with at the moment.

Not exactly that simple, in my experience.

There are a lot of gripes about iPhone OS 4 multitasking going around the internet, like this one comparing the Nokia N900 to iPhone OS 4:

http://cool900.blogspot.com/2010/04/...okia-n900.html