The Kobo DRM-free epub fiasco

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

No, I bought some Tor books in december and january and they were just epubs. No idea what that kepub is anyway, considering I don't own a Kobo device, nor have any device that runs any kobo software.

I didn't say kePub only I said every book on Kobo gets the kePub treatment which is true (except perhaps whatever format they use for things like magazines). The books you bought had ePub downloads, but also had kePub's.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Fbone

Is there an easy way to determine if a book is epub2 or epub3?

Look at the OPF, you will see if it's ePub 2 or ePub 3 by seeing 2.0 or 3.0.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Lynx-lynx

Here's pics of two epub2 book info:

epub2 DRM
epub2 DRM free

Can someone give me the name/author of an epub3 book, and then I'll Edit my post to add that pic as well.

Locked In by John Scalzi is ePub 3.

[pssquirrel]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

... I think many people are under the mistaken impression that epub3 automatically means it won't work on their reader. I know I have no trouble with any of the text-based (novels) EPUB3s I've gotten from B&N and Google using either ADE Desktop 2.0 or the RMSDK based epub app on my Nexus 7. I'm assuming your Sony T2 is RMSDK-based as well?

Yup, Sony Readers are RMSDK-based, and I can read EPUB3s on my RMSDK Sony as well as the really old ADE 1.72. Granted, all I read are straight-text novels, so my Sony may balk if I ask it to handle an EPUB3 with multi-media features or advanced formatting, but so far so good.

As you wrote in two earlier posts:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Most decent EPUB2 reading system (including RMSDK-based ones) won't blow up when encountering [an EPUB3]

AGREE!

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

EPUB3 doesn't automatically mean "incompatible with EPUB2 renderers."

AGREE!

Also, from the IDPF: "Although EPUB 3 is not perfectly backwards compatible with EPUB 2, a goal of the recent revision was to ensure, as much as possible, a basic level of rendering when features overlap." So even IDPF guidelines are geared toward enabling EPUB2 ereaders to manage "a basic level of rendering" of properly formed EPUB3.

If Kobo is serious about keeping an open garden, they should provide EPUB3 files and indicate that the format is EPUB3 on the product page so customers know exactly what they're getting. I don't see what's so tricky about this. It's just a file. It even has the same extension (.epub) as EPUB2, which they already provide. Plus Google and B&N seem to have no issue providing straight EPUB3 to their customers. As for compatibility concerns, companies have been listing system requirements and formats for years: this software is for Windows, this is for Mac, this requires Windows 7+, this requires OSX 10.8+; this is a DVD, this is a VHS videocassette, this is an audio CD, this is a cassette tape. If customers are expected to deal with all this, certainly they can be expected to deal with ebook format (EPUB2, EPUB3) and DRM status (Adobe DRM, DRM-Free).

On the other hand, if Kobo is transitioning to a walled kepub-only garden, then keep saying, "Sorry, that ebook is so special that it's only available as kepub. You'll have to buy a Kobo reader or download the Kobo app if you want to read it."

If Kobo wants to take the walled-garden path, that's fine. It's their choice. But as far as I can tell, this is a business decision, a company policy, not a technical difficulty.

[murg]

Originally Posted by pssquirrel

On the other hand, if Kobo is transitioning to a walled kepub-only garden, then keep saying, "Sorry, that ebook is so special that it's only available as kepub. You'll have to buy a Kobo reader or download the Kobo app if you want to read it."

If Kobo wants to take the walled-garden path, that's fine. It's their choice. But as far as I can tell, this is a business decision, a company policy, not a technical difficulty.

Hopefully Kobo isn't running the B&N playbook!

[ottdmk]

It's a given that many EPUB3 files will work ok on an EPUB2 rendering engine. The question becomes: how do you make sure?

I don't know what type of infrastructure would be needed to validate all incoming EPUB3 files against an EPUB2 renderer.

Google, as reported earlier in this thread (I have no personal experience), seems to be ok with taking the "just put it out there" approach. Perhaps they have validation capability; they are Google after all. Kobo has decided to only make such content available through the channel that they're confident will work, i.e. their own software (ACCESS or desktop.) Can't really blame them for it, although it may lose them a bit of business.

Where I hope things will go from here:

1) Kobo fixes the bugs they have surrounding EPUB3. Namely:
a) That if you put a preview of an EPUB3 book on your account, the Library page will falsely list a download option for that book.
b) Sony Reader software lists EPUB3 books for sale through the on-device store, despite the fact there is no Download option for those books (meaning they can't be sync'ed to a Sony device.

2) That when/if they make EPUB3 books available for download they continue their practice of listing the format on the book page in the Details section. (They never should have removed that in the first place; it needs to stay around as long as the company does.)

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ottdmk

I don't know what type of infrastructure would be needed to validate all incoming EPUB3 files against an EPUB2 renderer.

None. Same as the infrastructure they currently use to validate all incoming EPUB2 files against an EPUB2 renderer. They have no problem waiting for customers to report issues with EPUB2 FILES before doing anything about the troublesome ones. Not sure why this need be any different.

But in all honesty, I'm fairly certain they already have an EPUB3 infrastructure in place that could handle any potential issues. Unless, of course, we think each EPUB3 being submitted is currently being whipped up into kepub shape by hand.

I understand choosing not to support the sideloading of EPUB3 files. I really do (even if I don't like it). But the idea that they're either a) not technologically prepared to do so, or b) worried about losing business over doing so just doesn't hold water. They're simply looking to totally control the fulfillment mechanisms (delivery and DRM application) of EPUB3--from the get-go--so that they can shed themselves of their dependency upon Adobe. Once EPUB3 submissions become the norm, they kick Adobe to the curb and direct downloads/sideloads become a thing of the past at Kobo.

[Jane12]

Originally Posted by pssquirrel

... if Kobo is transitioning to a walled kepub-only garden, then keep saying, "Sorry, that ebook is so special that it's only available as kepub. You'll have to buy a Kobo reader or download the Kobo app if you want to read it.

Originally Posted by murg

Hopefully Kobo isn't running the B&N playbook!

It sure looks to me like Kobo and B&N are both moving toward a walled garden -- and Amazon and Apple/iBooks are already there.

I'm wondering how much publishers are driving these changes. From Publisher's Weekly:

HarperCollins has started using Digimarc Corp.’s watermarking system for e-books to provide an extra layer of security ... Although the system is capable of identifying consumers who download e-books illegally, HC is using it to make sure that its e-tailers “are using the highest degree of security possible,” Restivo-Alessi said. If the Guardian Watermarking finds e-books that are being downloaded illegally, they will ask that e-tailer to either upgrade their security efforts or risk being dropped as an account. [emphasis added]

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Jane12

It sure looks to me like Kobo and B&N are both moving toward a walled garden -- and Amazon and Apple/iBooks are already there.

That is a funny definition of "walled garden" you have, if it doesn't include ADE DRM.

It was always a walled garden, but now they are raising the walls higher.

Note that Amazon has long had walls only modestly higher than Kobo/B&N, which now look short by comparison.

[DrNefario]

Not really. Walled garden means kobo books for kobo devices. ADE means I can currently use my kobo books on both my kobo and my nook, without having to circumvent the DRM. Without ADE my nook is out in the cold.

Well, kobo are out in the cold. And ePub is becoming increasingly worthless as a standard. Kindles all round.

[eschwartz]

You are perfectly welcome to share other peoples' funny definitions of the term "walled garden", but take a look at Wikipedia for example:

Similar to a real walled garden, a user in a walled garden is unable to escape this area unless it is through the designated entry/exit points or the walls are removed.

Now I will grant you that Wikipedia is not a very good source for authoritative info -- note for example that they too pick on Kindles as the exclusive form of walled garden in the ebook world (and Apple may simply not be on their radar )... but nevertheless, the definition they give is widely shared, if not actually heeded.

[pssquirrel]

Originally Posted by ottdmk

It's a given that many EPUB3 files will work ok on an EPUB2 rendering engine. The question becomes: how do you make sure?

You don't. You make it clear which format the book is in (EPUB2 or EPUB3) and what the DRM status is (Adobe DRM or DRM-free), then you let the customer decide if it's appropriate for them.

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

... [Kobo is] simply looking to totally control the fulfillment mechanisms (delivery and DRM application) of EPUB3--from the get-go--so that they can shed themselves of their dependency upon Adobe. Once EPUB3 submissions become the norm, they kick Adobe to the curb and direct downloads/sideloads become a thing of the past at Kobo.

Oh wow. That hadn't occurred to me. I couldn't figure out why Kobo was doing what they were doing, but this scenario makes total sense. Thanks for the insight!

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by pssquirrel

You don't. You make it clear which format the book is in (EPUB2 or EPUB3) and what the DRM status is (Adobe DRM or DRM-free), then you let the customer decide if it's appropriate for them.



Oh wow. That hadn't occurred to me. I couldn't figure out why Kobo was doing what they were doing, but now it makes total sense. Thanks for the insight!

I'm not sure that is the case at all. I still upload epub 2 or 3 my choice. It has to pass epub checker (which is an apple thing more than anything) and that is just to ensure the file conforms to a standard.

I do agree they would be smart to not use adobe because of the fees, but I'm not sure they HAVE a plan as far as kepub. Some of it just seem accidental.

In other words, I'm not sure we can assume there is an actual plan.

[eschwartz]

Does that make it better or worse?

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by Fbone

I could never get the Calibre auto-add process to work.

I finally got this to work somewhat but I don't care for it. In my case, Calibre doesn't delete after adding so it keeps adding the same books to whatever library is showing. It adds the same titles it just added a few minutes ago to the same library. This requires me to babysit (deselecting and deleting duplicates) until it completes all tasks.

Went back to manual. Opening K4PC, syncing and adding to Calibre by title.