No E-Books Allowed in This Establishment

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

Despite my antipathy to smokers I think we will have to accept their presence in society unless we outlaw cigarettes

Well, medically speaking, tobacco is more damaging than cocaine, so any country that bans personal use of cocaine should, rationally speaking, also ban the sale of tobacco.

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Well, medically speaking, tobacco is more damaging than cocaine, so any country that bans personal use of cocaine should, rationally speaking, also ban the sale of tobacco.

Interesting, how do you quantify something like that? Is it accumulated damage? In what terms?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

Interesting, how do you quantify something like that? Is it accumulated damage? In what terms?

The medical body that advises the British government on drug policy released a "ranking" of all the different drugs - including alcohol and tobacco - a year or two ago. Both cannabis and cocaine rated well below tobacco in terms of the damage they do the body. It caused quite a stir here at the time, because it illustrated that there was a wide discrepency between the "class" of a drug (ie the length of prison sentence you can receive for possessing it) and how "dangerous" it actually was, and that tobacco was close to the top of the scale in terms of its medical damage. Largely, if memory serves me correctly, because it's physiologically addictive, whereas drugs like cocaine are not.

EDIT:
Here's a newpaper article about the study that was carried out. I was wrong about cocaine - it is very harmful - but, for example, LSD was ranked as being less harmful than either alcohol or tobacco.

[Andyp133]

I think passive smoking is disgraceful. Non-smokers should buy their own cigarettes !

[HamsterRage]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

...enforce capital punishment on smoking. Now that would be a clear cut message.

Seems to me that's already in place - it just takes years for the execution to complete. Yet still the message doesn't seem to get through.

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by HamsterRage

Seems to me that's already in place - it just takes years for the execution to complete. Yet still the message doesn't seem to get through.

Hmm, I wonder. Considering the time for appeals and re-trials and whatnot actual execution of a capital punishment from the time of the verdict in a district court is probably longer than it takes to smoke 500,000 toxic pins.

[HamsterRage]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

Hmm, I wonder. Considering the time for appeals and re-trials and whatnot actual execution of a capital punishment from the time of the verdict in a district court is probably longer than it takes to smoke 500,000 toxic pins.

You have a point. However, the message still does not seem clear.

[whitearrow]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The people who really suffer from smoking in restaurants, pubs, etc, are the employees. We, as customers, can make the choice not to eat in a restaurant which permits smoking, but the employees do not have that choice. Everybody has a right to a safe workplace environment and a smoky atmosphere is a proven health-risk.

It's also good for tourism, at least for visitors from places with bans already in place. I visited the UK in the late 90's, well after indoor smoking bans had been enacted in California. There were places, especially bars and restaurants, where we walked in and walked right out again because I couldn't tolerate the smoke, which gives me headaches and nausea. I decided I couldn't visit the UK again until this changed.

I went back in 2007 after the law did change, and was delighted to visit pubs, small restaurants and bars -- places I couldn't have set foot in before.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

I get it! Being a non-smoker (my whole life) I have absolutely no problem with it being banned. Here in Sweden it is the same. You want to smoke, you hang out in the doorway and litter the entrance with butts. I find it appallingly disgusting. But I also realize that for better or worse they are also people, not as productive (considering the amounts of smoking breaks) and here they will pretty much be eliminated within this decade. The latest is talk of a smoking ban in apartments buildings, the ventilation brings second hand smoke into other apartments. So people are beginning to stand outside on their balconies to smoke (you notice it from the amount of butts under balcony equipped apartments).
Despite my antipathy to smokers I think we will have to accept their presence in society unless we outlaw cigarettes and enforce capital punishment on smoking. Now that would be a clear cut message.

In Arizona, the law also bans smoking within 20 feet of an entrance. The non-smoking ban includes all public places, including restaurants, businesses, govenment buildings, places of employment (a Mom and Pop business with no other employees is excepted) and any bar that serves any kind of food (including the little bowls pretzels and peanuts intended to make you thirsty so you'll buy more booze). Indoor smoking areas have to be walled off from the rest of the room/building and have separate HVAC systems so smoke ladened air is not recirculated into non-smoking areas. Otherwise, they have to be outside 20 feet from any entrance (other than the one reserved for the smoking area)

Where I last worked, that really limited smokers because the only public entrance had portable propane tanks stored 15 feet from the entrance. Since the only ashtrays had been attached to the trashcans which were kept by the door, we had to remove the ashtrays when the law was passed, meaning there were a ton of butts to clean up from the ground. We were also required to enforce the no-smoking laws to avoid being cited ourselves (and any employee who got cited or got the store cited for any reason was subject to termination). It was amazing how often we got static over it, no matter how nice we tried to be. It was also amazing how many people became almost violent over being asked to put them out or move, even when we tried to politely explain that it was State law that set the no-smoking rules, not us or the company. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I had to call the police because someone refused to put it out or move, especially when they became became abusive about it. Their selfish, inconsiderate and childish behavior is just another reason why no-smoking laws were necessary.

[patrickt]

I saw a man from a restaurant in Salt Lake City measuring the distance from the door for two smokers on the sidewalk. Silly.

Of course, the deadly second hand smoke explains why no one born in the 1940s is still alive.

I actually came here today because it amuses me to see where perfectly normal threads go when they get too long. Bizarre.

[SeaBookGuy]

I was going to bring the thread back by adding that I would've asked the employee: "If print and audio books would be okay, how is reading an ebook not?"

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I saw a man from a restaurant in Salt Lake City measuring the distance from the door for two smokers on the sidewalk. Silly.

Of course, the deadly second hand smoke explains why no one born in the 1940s is still alive.

The medical evidence that passive smoking can cause lung cancer is overwhelming. When it is discovered that something is dangerous, don't you think that reasonable action should be taken to reduce that risk, where it's possible and feasible to do so?

Personally I don't give a damn if someone smokes 80 cigarettes a day and kills themselves with lung cancer. I think they're a fool, but it's their free choice to do so. But when they choose to inflict their disgusting habit on me, then I do care.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The medical evidence that passive smoking can cause lung cancer is overwhelming. When it is discovered that something is dangerous, don't you think that reasonable action should be taken to reduce that risk, where it's possible and feasible to do so?

Personally I don't give a damn if someone smokes 80 cigarettes a day and kills themselves with lung cancer. I think they're a fool, but it's their free choice to do so. But when they choose to inflict their disgusting habit on me, then I do care.

I obviously agreed. It does explain why no one born in the 1940s when new fathers handed out cigars, is still alive. Second-hand smoke causes cancer. I grew up with two parents who smoked, bowling alleys were full of cigarette smoke, don't even think about going into a bar and I haven't figured out yet how we have politicians who are 80-years old like Rep. Rangel who started their careers in smoke-filled back rooms. Even outside, in a strong wind, it's deadly. Actually, seeing people smoke is dangerous.

Of course, HarryT, high-blood pressure and stress is dangerous, too.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I obviously agreed. It does explain why no one born in the 1940s when new fathers handed out cigars, is still alive. Second-hand smoke causes cancer. I grew up with two parents who smoked, bowling alleys were full of cigarette smoke, don't even think about going into a bar and I haven't figured out yet how we have politicians who are 80-years old like Rep. Rangel who started their careers in smoke-filled back rooms. Even outside, in a strong wind, it's deadly. Actually, seeing people smoke is dangerous.

Of course, HarryT, high-blood pressure and stress is dangerous, too.

It's amazing how quickly cigarette smoke can spread. I can be stopped at a traffic light with the windows closed and the air conditioning on and often smell the cigarette smoke from an adjacent vehicle unless I temporarily turn on Recirculate to avoid the AC from sucking it in.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

It's amazing how quickly cigarette smoke can spread. I can be stopped at a traffic light with the windows closed and the air conditioning on and often smell the cigarette smoke from an adjacent vehicle unless I temporarily turn on Recirculate to avoid the AC from sucking it in.

It is absolutely amazing. Deadly, too.