Seriously thoughtful How do you plan to prove you are a citizen?

[kennyc]

Hey Time Travelers are Illegal Aliens TOO!

[SameOldStory]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

You might want to get one of your own while you are still able to. There are more and more restrictions to travel every year.

Stitchawl

Naw. No place is as good as here. The World according to the America.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by rhadin

In light of the new law in Arizona that threatens arrest if you can't demonstrate citizenship or legal immigration status, I'm wondering how non-Arizonians who plan to travel to or through Arizona plan to demonstrate citizenship and how Arizonians plan to demonstrate it. Does anyone know if Arizona plans to issue statewide identity cards to prove citizenship?

I expect a birth certificate would be inadequate proof (and I don't know very many people who carry a copy with them 24/7/365 anyway) in light of Arizona's other pending law that will require presidential candidates to prove they are natural born citizens in order to be on the Arizona election ballot. At least according to the news reports, the reason for this law is that many Arizonians don't believe Barack Obama is a natural born citizen, which means they disbelieve his Hawaiian birth certificate, which must mean that birth certificates aren't sufficient evidence of citizenship. And it is well-known how easy it is to get a fake driver's license and social security card.

The cynic in me thinks this is just a Republican ploy to force the federal government to issue national identity cards without the Republicans having to say they actually favor them and alienate large numbers of their base. Crafty thinking if that's the thinking.

Yanno, between this Az thing and the immigration bill at the federal level where they are trying to push a National ID card...all I can think of is 1984. It...brings shivers of dread down my spine.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by bob1xxx

...police investigation...

Police? If you're job is paid by the government, you are responsible for enforcement of this law.

[kennyc]

Immigration of course is a big issue in the British Election to be held this coming week. Gordon Brown got a bit boo-boo via an open microphone because of it....

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Yanno, between this Az thing and the immigration bill at the federal level where they are trying to push a National ID card...all I can think of is 1984. It...brings shivers of dread down my spine.

That's what the new 'Passport Card' is all about... And they almost passed it as law a year ago. It just missed receiving enough votes by a small margin. All it will take will be one more terrorist event and its induced frenzy to keep them at bay and the vote will pass and everyone will need the cards just to go from state to state. THAT was the law they were trying to move through congress.

Stitchawl

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

Naw. No place is as good as here. The World according to the America.

Unfortunately, I've met waaaay too many people in America who feel this map is accurate.
It's one of the reasons why I chose to live outside the U.S. Once I moved I discovered it was only partially correct.


Stitchawl

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

That's what the new 'Passport Card' is all about... And they almost passed it as law a year ago. It just missed receiving enough votes by a small margin. All it will take will be one more terrorist event and its induced frenzy to keep them at bay and the vote will pass and everyone will need the cards just to go from state to state. THAT was the law they were trying to move through congress.

Stitchawl

It's downright scary is what it is. It's also highly illogical as a means to solve terrorism, drug trafficking...or anything else, really.

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

It's downright scary is what it is. It's also highly illogical as a means to solve terrorism, drug trafficking...or anything else, really.

Since when did logic ever apply to politics?

As someone once said; 'I wouldn't vote for anyone who really wanted the job!'


Stitchawl

[hnoto]

Originally Posted by Robert Minneman

Most states do not allow illegal immigrants to get a drivers license. Arizona is one of those states, so if you have a drivers license you can easily identify yourself as a citizen.

This law is a RENDUNDANT law, namely it's law that tells the state of Arizona, "Yes, we will enforce current FEDERAL immigration policy."

Speaking with friends from Arizona, they're quite happy with this law. With 500,000+ illegal immigrants using state healthcare, schooling, and even welfare dollars, they're hurting.

The state of Arizona has been begging the Federal government for YEARS to enforce immigration, crack down on the flood of illegals, and get this problem under control.

Why is it a bad thing for the state to take the initiative and finally say, "Fine, when we pull over someone who is speeding, and they can't provide a drivers license and they barely speak english, and they're acting really nervous, let's go ahead and ask them to provide a green card (which if they're a LEGAL immigrant on a work visa, they're required BY FEDERAL LAW to carry anyway).

The ONLY people who have ANYTHING to fear from this law are the illegal immigrants and those companies knowingly employing illegals. Illegal immigrants, BEGING ILLEGAL, they have limited "rights" when it comes to the law in the country anyway so they CERTAINLY should not have ANY influence on what laws our LEGAL citizens pass. The companies that knowingly employing those people are afraid of losing a workforce they can easily exploit.

This law PROTECTS immigrants by helping ensure LEGAL immigrants have available to them jobs where they can report abuses, and reduces the prospect of employers with 'questionable intent' from having such an extensive exploitable workforce.

THIS...this this this!
I'm sorry for the problems legal immigrants will have because of this law. And I can only hope that our police force will be cautious, needing probable cause before questioning people.

However, the crime rate in AZ has skyrocketed along with the number of illegal immigrants who come through our borders.

From the AZ Republic: "In 1996, for example, Valley law-enforcement agents estimated that 40 percent of all homicides in Maricopa County were a result of conflicts involving Mexican narcotics organizations, mostly from Sinaloa state. A decade later, the Attorney General's Office exposed a $2 billion human-smuggling business based in metro Phoenix, where criminals often assaulted illegal aliens while holding them for payment of smuggling fees. More recently, cartel-related home invasions and abductions put Phoenix among the world leaders in kidnappings."

It is in the news DAILY that the Phx police find a home filled with illegals who were being held hostage for ransom by their coyotes. (The people who had promised to bring them over the border.) DAILY in traffic stops, they find vans/trucks full of illegals who scatter when the truck is pulled over. The police are finding many many homes where drugs are stashed--and most of those involved an illegal or 3 running the drugs.

It is required in AZ to have car insurance. If you don't get "uninsured driver" on your policy you are a fool. I can name 5-6 friends who have gotten in accidents where the driver either ran off or had no insurance/driver's license and slipped away before the police got there. (We can only assume they weren't legal.)

I'm sorry too, to all of you who are missing the old days when the U.S. was a haven for our immigrant forefathers looking for a new life. Isn't it too bad that the world has to keep changing? I agree it is not always change for the better. How long did you think that we could go on accepting everyone who asks to come into our country? Don't you think we would bust at the seams sooner or later?

[Logseman]

Like your immigrant forefathers?

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by hnoto

THIS...this this this!
I'm sorry for the problems legal immigrants will have because of this law. And I can only hope that our police force will be cautious, needing probable cause before questioning people.

The requirement of 'probable cause' went out the window right after 9/11 with the 'Patriot Act.'

The most we can hope for is that the police don't abuse their authority.


Stitchawl

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by hnoto

THIS...this this this!
I'm sorry for the problems legal immigrants will have because of this law. And I can only hope that our police force will be cautious, needing probable cause before questioning people.

However, the crime rate in AZ has skyrocketed along with the number of illegal immigrants who come through our borders.

From the AZ Republic: "In 1996, for example, Valley law-enforcement agents estimated that 40 percent of all homicides in Maricopa County were a result of conflicts involving Mexican narcotics organizations, mostly from Sinaloa state. A decade later, the Attorney General's Office exposed a $2 billion human-smuggling business based in metro Phoenix, where criminals often assaulted illegal aliens while holding them for payment of smuggling fees. More recently, cartel-related home invasions and abductions put Phoenix among the world leaders in kidnappings."

It is in the news DAILY that the Phx police find a home filled with illegals who were being held hostage for ransom by their coyotes. (The people who had promised to bring them over the border.) DAILY in traffic stops, they find vans/trucks full of illegals who scatter when the truck is pulled over. The police are finding many many homes where drugs are stashed--and most of those involved an illegal or 3 running the drugs.

It is required in AZ to have car insurance. If you don't get "uninsured driver" on your policy you are a fool. I can name 5-6 friends who have gotten in accidents where the driver either ran off or had no insurance/driver's license and slipped away before the police got there. (We can only assume they weren't legal.)

I'm sorry too, to all of you who are missing the old days when the U.S. was a haven for our immigrant forefathers looking for a new life. Isn't it too bad that the world has to keep changing? I agree it is not always change for the better. How long did you think that we could go on accepting everyone who asks to come into our country? Don't you think we would bust at the seams sooner or later?

Agreed. I don't know the percentage, but the crimes and perpetrators here in Colorado are similar.

I fully support whatever actions we need to take to stop illegal immigration. I think the AZ law is a good start.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by hnoto

THIS...this this this!
I'm sorry for the problems legal immigrants will have because of this law. And I can only hope that our police force will be cautious, needing probable cause before questioning people.

...Once more, it's EVERYONE paid by the AZ government, not just police officers. The garbage man has to query your immigration status if he suspects you're an illegal!

And no, "probable cause" is precisely what this law dosn't require.

You're "sorry" you'll end up throwing many legal immigrants out because of federal processing delays they don't control. Just acceptable collateral damage, ey? Blatant xenophobia, all of it. "They cause crime!111!!!" Or not.

In the meantime, btw, in the industry I work in? You're bleeding 5000 jobs a year (sounds small, but it's a small and high margin sector) to Canada, because Canadian companies can and do tap the global talent pool.

[BearMountainBooks]

I think it's a darn shame when a law like this is put into place because people believe it will help solve crime issues. All those activities described in the posts above are crimes and already stoppable by police. There's no need for a law that requires proof of citizenship to stop any drug house, drug lord, drug seller, shipper, etc. They are already illegal activities and these are simply excuses to pass a law that okays a form of racism.

Everyone is against crime. But using crimes to push such a law into existence is simplifying the problem and also focusing on the wrong things. If drug shipments are a problem or human trafficking--those are crimes. Stop them. Push the Federal or local government for solutions--like stopping the drugs from coming across. Don't promote a law requiring "proof of citizenship." Because guess what? It's not "just" illegal aliens buying those drugs, reselling them, or then committing crimes to afford the addictive habits. But oh, it is so easy to believe it is "them" those "illegal aliens" that are responsible for all of our problems. Yes, our citizens are better than "them."

I have lived in two border states and still live in one. It's too easy to blame the crime on illegal immigrants. I have also worked in health care in a border state and so has my mother. It is not illegal aliens who sit in the ER and get health care that they then do not pay for. Illegal aliens are afraid of deportation. They avoid clinics and other places where they might get caught. Yes, there are immigrants who deliberately cross the border to have their child here, but that is not an excuse to push a law that even skirts close to asking people for ID/proof of citizenship because of the color of their skin, the way they look or the way they talk.

There are real problems out there that need to be solved, but this law is a wolf in sheep's clothing. And gosh, it's so easy to believe the law isn't a bad thing because really, is showing your driver's license so hard? No, it's not. But being asked to show it and being able to do a more thorough background check SIMPLY because of the color of your skin or the look of your culture is wrong. Being able to arrest someone because they can't immediately show proof of citizenship...Down a terrible path indeed.

It starts small. It was okay when they came only for the Jews that were greedy, because they didn't belong, they charged too much for interest on loans, they, they, them against us...

One more example and then I will speak on this no more. I worked at a large computer company a few years back. There was a huge crackdown on employees surfing the internet and downloading porn. Several people were fired, but before the firing, there was rumor of what was coming down the pike. One of my friends said, "Oh it's those people in manufacturing. You just know they're the type, low-class, nothing better to do."

"Uh, friend. The people on the manufacturing line...don't have computers at their desks. They don't even have DESKS. They stand on a line all day putting parts in place."

Yes, the people on the line worked for low wages. Many of them were Hispanic. So easy to think it's "Them, working for minimum wage, the unknown, those we don't mingle with." Might even be some illegal aliens with false papers.

Turns out a director was fired, a few engineers...someone in marketing...

Crime is a problem. Lock up the criminals. Don't use skin color, culture, poverty, low-paying jobs, a crummy looking car to judge. That's plenty of work to be done with existing laws without passing laws for "national IDs" or "proof of citizenship." I'm pretty sure proof of citizenship doesn't mean we'll all suddenly live a crime-free life and I'm pretty sure it doesn't make us better than "them."