Doctorow on the iPad

[DawnFalcon]

So your argument is "bend over"? Lovely. In the meantime, I'll go on arguing for sane approval policies, with such features as pre-approval, explicit rules and limitations on retrospective actions.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by stustaff

But thats the point if you know the risks and limits (That apple will may not approve or remove an app for any reason at their ridiculous whim) then a dev must know thoe limitations its been pretty well publicsied everywhere!

Im in favour of it purely from a personel point of view I dont get rubbish on my wifes iphone that causes it to crash or is complicated so no tech support. I on the other hand also KNOW apples limitations so have chosen to jailbreak.

Why should you have to crack a company's security (jailbreak) just to use the property you bought to it fullest capacity?

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Why should you have to crack a company's security (jailbreak) just to use the property you bought to it fullest capacity?

I dont have to I could buy a different device.

I dont understand your question? My xbox 360 could play old nes games but Microsoft dont let me so Microsoft are as bad yes?
My new PS3 doesnt let me install Linux Sony are as bad yes?
I cant read ePub on my Kindle Amazon are as bad yes?
I cant put non TOMTOM maps into my TOMTOM tomtom are as bad yes?
I cant record programmes from my SKY+ box SKY are as bad yes

All of those things could be got around by doing the equivalent of jailbreaking the devices.

if YOU want a device that is more flexible dont buy any of the above or accept that you may need to mess with them to make them more flexible, many many other devices also operate in what is a perfectly standard way.

Are you so into opensource that any device that isnt is automatically bad?

Apple sell a device and people know what it does and how it works they then choose to buy it and are happy or arent and buy something else next time.

I dont get the hate for non open source. is it because Apple in particular are being sosuccesful with a non open source methodology?

[DawnFalcon]

Are they being sold as e-readers? Well, maybe - just maybe - that's why the iPad is being criticised on this forum.


"Are you so into opensource that any device that isnt is automatically bad?"

If there are two devices of roughly equivalent spec, and one is open source and the other isn't, I'll pay up to 20% extra or put up with some deficiencies to get the open device. And for /some/ devices like routers, if it's not open? Screw that.

Apple are good at marketing. Their devices are so-so, technically.

[Logseman]

I dont get the hate for non open source. is it because Apple in particular are being successful with a non open source methodology?

Not specially. It's because closed source models only work with copyright enforcement, and deprive the consumer of their power of choice. I like my iPod touch, but if the battery happens to die, I'm screwed about it. My washing machine works fine, but if it gets broken I have no way to repair it. On the other side, I like my Pocketbook, and if the battery gets screwed I can throw it away, zap another one and keep using it, though I am still as much of a dunce concerning batteries as before. Open source encourages modular models: if one piece is defective, it can be replaced for another one and the same machine keeps working. Closed source models use a "take no prisoners" mentality, and if something's wrong inside of them your only option is to turn it back and get a replacement. Closed source alienates the device from its owner, so much that it's doubtful that he's an owner anymore but a licensee.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by stustaff

I dont have to I could buy a different device.

I dont understand your question? My xbox 360 could play old nes games but Microsoft dont let me so Microsoft are as bad yes?
My new PS3 doesnt let me install Linux Sony are as bad yes?
I cant read ePub on my Kindle Amazon are as bad yes?
I cant put non TOMTOM maps into my TOMTOM tomtom are as bad yes?
I cant record programmes from my SKY+ box SKY are as bad yes

All of those things could be got around by doing the equivalent of jailbreaking the devices.

if YOU want a device that is more flexible dont buy any of the above or accept that you may need to mess with them to make them more flexible, many many other devices also operate in what is a perfectly standard way.

Are you so into opensource that any device that isnt is automatically bad?

Apple sell a device and people know what it does and how it works they then choose to buy it and are happy or arent and buy something else next time.

I dont get the hate for non open source. is it because Apple in particular are being sosuccesful with a non open source methodology?

I don't get why if closed box is so good, you choose to jailbreak? I think that's a fair question. If you want to do things on a completely closed system that are not allowed, against the rules set down by the manufacturer, you should get an open system instead. They'll work longer that the cat-and-mouse between vendor and jailbreaker.

What my concern is, and I have it with all closed systems (and DRM as well), is that when something goes bad, or merely changes, you find the value of your software (which is usually more than the hardware) going right down the drain. Only then do people get upset, after it's too late.

[mores]

Microsoft Windows is also a closed system. I bought a PC a while back along with windows and a shitload of programs. Then I switched to a mac and can't use those programs anymore. Must be Microsoft DRM or something. Bah.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by mores

Microsoft Windows is also a closed system. I bought a PC a while back along with windows and a shitload of programs. Then I switched to a mac and can't use those programs anymore. Must be Microsoft DRM or something. Bah.

Microsoft is a proprietary system. It controls it's internal code. It does not control what software that can be written under it. Why do you think there are so many viruses?

The Mac is a completely different proprietary system. Linux is a different open-source system. I don't expect a program written under any particular proprietary system to run under another proprietary system, or other open source system without modification, although snail-slow interpreted languages can be run under different OS'es.

Try running 10 year old Mac software on your Mac....

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Microsoft is a proprietary system. It controls it's internal code. It does not control what software that can be written under it. Why do you think there are so many viruses?

The Mac is a completely different proprietary system. Linux is a different open-source system. I don't expect a program written under any particular proprietary system to run under another proprietary system, or other open source system without modification, although snail-slow interpreted languages can be run under different OS'es.

Try running 10 year old Mac software on your Mac....

Thanks Ralph Sir....

"...control what software that can be written under it. " or run by it...

the iPad on the other hand requires Apple central to allow software to run on/under it.

What a change from "Big Brother" eh?

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Thanks Ralph Sir....

"...control what software that can be written under it. " or run by it...

the iPad on the other hand requires Apple central to allow software to run on/under it.

What a change from "Big Brother" eh?

"We have seen the enemy, and it is us...." - Pogo

Actually Kenny C. I think the appropriate ad would be the Lemming ad by Apple from the next year....

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

"We have seen the enemy, and it is us...." - Pogo

Actually Kenny C. I think the appropriate ad would be the Lemming ad by Apple from the next year....

Yep.....I'm still contemplating that lemming/religious technology zealot article I'm soon to write.

This is all fodder for the grist...

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I don't get why if closed box is so good, you choose to jailbreak? I think that's a fair question. If you want to do things on a completely closed system that are not allowed, against the rules set down by the manufacturer, you should get an open system instead. They'll work longer that the cat-and-mouse between vendor and jailbreaker.

What my concern is, and I have it with all closed systems (and DRM as well), is that when something goes bad, or merely changes, you find the value of your software (which is usually more than the hardware) going right down the drain. Only then do people get upset, after it's too late.

closed box is great for some things and not others if anything it's not bad or good but different and it's the buyers choice if they choose a closed system, I jailbreak because I'm prepared to deal with the crashes I get and very occasional slow down. My wides isn't jailbroken and the fact that she can just use it and install anything from apple without worrying what it is and knowing things will always run smoothly is a big advantage to us.

I'm not saying open source is bad I have a Linux server and have used various open software I am even waiting onthe open source handheld pandora I love open source.
But you seem negative about an apple product because it isn't open source and I don't get that because lots of devices are closed as I mentioned, can you not see that for sone devices and some users it's a better option and that it's a good thing that we have a choice?

I don't really understand your point about if things go wrong? If my battery on my iPhone goes wrong I can send it to apple or buy a battery and fit it look around all parts are available in fact probably more readily available than many other 3 year old gadgets. My open source pandora for example I'd be worried how I get that repaired if it breaks in three years what with it having been made by some guys off of a forum! Just because it's open or closed doesn't really mean anything there are many other factors in the parts/ repair situation that open closed is almost irrelevant.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by stustaff

can you not see that for sone devices and some users it's a better option and that it's a good thing that we have a choice?

No. That's the same argument as security-through-obscurity.

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

No. That's the same argument as security-through-obscurity.

No it isn't.

[DawnFalcon]

Of course it is. That closed-source is magically better because people can't see what's behind it or tinker with it.