Amazon says 'will have to capitulate and accept Macmillan's terms'

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

What's funny is that in many ways Macmillan's proposed pricing structure is very similar to Baen's. $15 for "must have it now," falling to $6 later. Yes they're stretching it out over a longer timeline, but the same idea is there.

Baen's $15 is pre-release, before the hardcover is available. Not simultaneous with hardcover release. And the drop to $6 occurs at a specific time (paper release), and is absolute: it's not a drop to $12 in three months, then $10 in another three months, then $8 six months after that, and finally $6 two years after original release.

And while Macmillan has said they'll be lowering the prices of ebooks over time, they haven't said how much, or how much time. They may decide that some books should just stay at $15, or at mmpb price ($8-9), in order to "avoid cannibalizing" the print sales.

[bgalbrecht]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

And while Macmillan has said they'll be lowering the prices of ebooks over time, they haven't said how much, or how much time. They may decide that some books should just stay at $15, or at mmpb price ($8-9), in order to "avoid cannibalizing" the print sales.

I'd be happy if MacMillan's ebook prices would drop to mmpb price, so many of them are sitting at trade paperback or hardback prices years after the mmpb was released.

[Tattncat]

My take is simple, if the price is within my range $0-10 (very rarely $11 and change) I'll buy it. If it's more than that and I really, really want to read it I'll check the eBook out of the library. I don't buy paper anymore.

There is more than enough out there in PD and within my range to keep me happily reading for years. If MacMillan and others like them want my business they'll have to deal with the eBook market in an equitable manner. I am not out to short change the authors, I just need to see the individual buyer of eBooks being treated fairly (i.e. Fair pricing and no DRM).

[kennyc]

And certainly the popular authors or those who can create their popularity and audience can easily make more money by offering their work directly to the public.

[Pardoz]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

What's funny is that in many ways Macmillan's proposed pricing structure is very similar to Baen's. $15 for "must have it now," falling to $6 later.

"Later", in Macmillan's case, seems to be "fourteen years and counting after publication", compared to Baen's "pay $15 to get an unproofed copy of the book six months before it's released." Slight difference.

They were also trying for DRM-free releases as well, but Amazon wouldn't go for it.

Holtzbrinck/Macmillan? The same Holtzbrinck/Macmillan that terminated with extreme prejudice their Tor imprint's agreement to sell DRM-free e-books three days after it went live, that Holtzbrinck/Macmillan? The same Holtzbrinck/Macmillan that's been fighting tooth and nail for four years to prevent that experiment from ever seeing the light of day again? I find that a little hard to believe without some evidence.

[Pardoz]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

Macmillan, through their Tor subsidiary, has been working on a deal with Baen.

Not quite. They had a deal in place with Baen back in 2006 and made a bunch of books available through the Webscriptions store - you can find a list here. Holtzbrinck killed it after about three days (per the head of Webscriptions: "It's official that Tor's corporate parent pulled the plug on the project for the foreseeable future. Don't blame Tor or Tom. Strictly uber-corporate bone headedness.").

Four years after the deal went bust, the only legal electronic copies available of a couple of those books are the unproofed ARC copies that are still for sale at Baen (I'm guessing the ARCs fell through the cracks in the contract). Several more titles aren't legally available electronically at all.

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by Pardoz

Not quite. They had a deal in place with Baen back in 2006 and made a bunch of books available through the Webscriptions store - you can find a list here. Holtzbrinck killed it after about three days (per the head of Webscriptions: "It's official that Tor's corporate parent pulled the plug on the project for the foreseeable future. Don't blame Tor or Tom. Strictly uber-corporate bone headedness.").

Four years after the deal went bust, the only legal electronic copies available of a couple of those books are the unproofed ARC copies that are still for sale at Baen (I'm guessing the ARCs fell through the cracks in the contract). Several more titles aren't legally available electronically at all.

I know about the three-day deal - I took advantage of it at the time and can still download the books I bought then.

However, that's not the deal I was talking about. Both Tor and Baen have since mentioned an agreement in principle to start selling Tor books through webscriptions again. That deal does seem to have been seriously delayed, but it has been mentioned enough times in enough places that I have to believe that it's something they have been working on if nothing else.

[bwaldron]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

However, that's not the deal I was talking about. Both Tor and Baen have since mentioned an agreement in principle to start selling Tor books through webscriptions again. That deal does seem to have been seriously delayed, but it has been mentioned enough times in enough places that I have to believe that it's something they have been working on if nothing else.

Actually, a recent interview on Teleread w/ Pablo Defendini from Tor.com made it seem like there will be no Tor books sold through Webscriptions.

Money quote: "The Tor.com ebook store has absolutely nothing to do with Baen, never has, and probably never will, sadly (I’m a fan of Baen’s bookstore). The confluence of Baen and Tor.com’s stores is probably a result of the Tor Books/Baen relationship being so prominent in the ebook landscape, but that’s in the past, as far as I know."

Given Macmillan's recent actions, this is of course unsurprising.

[MerLock]

In my opinion, ebook prices don't correlate with the quality of ebooks as they do with paper books.

For ebooks:

1) Mostly DRM ridden
2) Most of my purchase don't even include cover art
3) Formatting and proofing/editing is inconsistent and often poor in all regards
4) Can not loan out to others or resell
5) Can not even donate to a library

Now I have the opportunity to even pay more! Woo hoo! <insert sarcasm>

I see the quality as about 50 to 75% of mass paperback books so in my opinion would be fair to be priced as such. Just as how hardcover, trade paperback, mass paperback are priced accordingly.

If they want to raise the price, they should consider improving the quality and ease the restrictions known as DRM!

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by MerLock

In my opinion, ebook prices don't correlate with the quality of ebooks as they do with paper books.

For ebooks:

1) Mostly DRM ridden
2) Most of my purchase don't even include cover art
3) Formatting and proofing/editing is inconsistent and often poor in all regards
4) Can not loan out to others or resell
5) Can not even donate to a library

Now I have the opportunity to even pay more! Woo hoo! <insert sarcasm>

I see the quality as about 50 to 75% of mass paperback books so in my opinion would be fair to be priced as such. Just as how hardcover, trade paperback, mass paperback are priced accordingly.

If they want to raise the price, they should consider improving the quality and ease the restrictions known as DRM!

Improving the quality is a given.

However I think there's a point that's being missed here: Macmillan's plan involves paying more if you want it first, and paying less if you wait, just like paper. Pay $15 for the ebook of a hardcover on launch day; and pay $6 later. We don't know the details of how the dynamic pricing will work, but the plan certainly seems to involve getting ebooks to 75% of the price of a paperback; just not simultaneously with the hardcover release.

[mcl]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

Improving the quality is a given.

However I think there's a point that's being missed here: Macmillan's plan involves paying more if you want it first, and paying less if you wait, just like paper. Pay $15 for the ebook of a hardcover on launch day; and pay $6 later. We don't know the details of how the dynamic pricing will work, but the plan certainly seems to involve getting ebooks to 75% of the price of a paperback; just not simultaneously with the hardcover release.

No, Macmillan's plan involves paying more ifyou want it fist, and paying less if you wait, for some unspecified time with no reason whatsoever to believe it will coincide with any paperback availability.

In fact, given Macmillan's current gross disparity between TPB and MMB prices vs. ebook list prices for those same titles, there's little reason to believe Macmillan will reduce the price in anything other than geologic time.

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by mcl

No, Macmillan's plan involves paying more ifyou want it fist, and paying less if you wait, for some unspecified time with no reason whatsoever to believe it will coincide with any paperback availability.

In fact, given Macmillan's current gross disparity between TPB and MMB prices vs. ebook list prices for those same titles, there's little reason to believe Macmillan will reduce the price in anything other than geologic time.

I never said anything about Macmillan's proposed time frame - only that it would work the same way as lowering prices in the same way prices now fall when a book moves from hardcover to paperback.

We can't go on their past record either (which I say as someone who generally refuses to buy Macmillan ebooks because of price), because this is supposed to be a new system. However, a higher initial price (even on Kindle) may give them the flexibility to lower prices later. We just don't know how it's going to work out yet.

As it is, Amazon's behavior has put me strongly on Macmillan's side.

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Amazon most certainly isn't on "our" side, they are on their own side. I do think they want to promote ebooks for reasons beyond mere profits or market dominance; but I also believe that publishers also care about a lot about books, probably more than they do about profits. (If you're greedy, the book business is definitely the wrong industry for you -- as any investment banker's asset portfolio can clearly demonstrate.)

You do realise this argument is spurious, right?
1. There can only be so many bankers, and not everyone has the skills necessary to become one.
2. Mediocre bankers make a lot less than CEOs of publishing houses.
(Also, you seem to be confusing the opinions of the middle management with theirs.)

You're of course welcome to believe that they care, but for that you'd have to first show me that CEOs of major publishers get their jobs after having climbed the corporate ladder, rather than through their connections. Caring about your business is all well and good, but you only get away with it (that is, the most influential share holders will only agree with your charted course of action) if you've got enough charisma or pull yourself; everyone else is just a good MBA, irrespective of the industry he's in.

[MerLock]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

Improving the quality is a given.

However I think there's a point that's being missed here: Macmillan's plan involves paying more if you want it first, and paying less if you wait, just like paper. Pay $15 for the ebook of a hardcover on launch day; and pay $6 later. We don't know the details of how the dynamic pricing will work, but the plan certainly seems to involve getting ebooks to 75% of the price of a paperback; just not simultaneously with the hardcover release.

As as consumer, I hope that when this is all fleshed out that we will get to hear the details. I may not agree with the timeline but at least I would know there is consideration for discounting ebooks to perhaps 75% of paperbacks and how long the wait is.

I'm also worried about who is ultimatly in charge of making the discounts apear in ebook stores. Will it be the publishers, the retailers or the customers?

For the physical item, a store knows to price a paperback at the paperback price because it's a physical item that they have to stock. For the digital item, will it be up to the publishers to notify e-book stores, e-book stores to keep track of when the lower price paperback is available or up to the consumer to notify the ebook store about pricing?

I would feel a lot more comfortable if I knew that there is a system in place for this and what it is.

[Pardoz]

Originally Posted by MerLock

I'm also worried about who is ultimatly in charge of making the discounts apear in ebook stores. Will it be the publishers, the retailers or the customers?

Under the agency model, the publishers. That's the whole point of the model. The price drops when the publisher says it does. You're free to email your favourite store and ask why a certain e-book is still selling for hardcover price when the paperback has been out for fifteen years, of course, but the response will be 'Because that's the price we've been told to sell it at, and we're not allowed to change it.'