Amazon faces class-action lawsuit over eBook pricing

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ApK

But more often, people "need" a PARTICULAR book. If I'm assigned a book at school or work, I can't say "it was too expensive, I'll read something else." Or you REALLY want to finish the cliff hanger of the in the 10th book of the series!

I get it's not GUNPOINT, but it is various forms of legitimate pressure that may make you shell out more than you really think it's worth. If you feel the price is unjustly high (even allowing for free market capitalism), it's perfectly legitimate to push for better prices in ways other than merely not buying.

All quite true. Thanks. It just has nothing to do with those claiming that the price of ebooks has increased because publishers/sellers did not pass on their reduced VAT savings to their customers.

My beef in this thread has been twofold:
1) the "newsworthy" argument of companies not passing on savings to customers (** yawn **)
2) the inaccurate claim that ebooks prices have increased because they weren't decreased.

I have no problem with people wanting ebooks to be cheaper. I have no problem with people wishing all companies passed their windfalls onto their customers in the form of reduced product prices. I only have a problem with claiming that such business practices are newsworthy, and with claiming that 3.99 (with the publisher paying 20% VAT) yesterday, is somehow more money for a customer to pay than 3.99 (with the publisher NOT paying 20% VAT) today. As some (not all) are doing.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by ApK

Books are often not fungible. Sure, if you just feel like trying some new mystery or new sci fi, you can shop by nothing more that the price tag in the genre section.

But more often, people "need" a PARTICULAR book. If I'm assigned a book at school or work, I can't say "it was too expensive, I'll read something else." Or you REALLY want to finish the cliff hanger in the last book of the series!

I get it's not GUNPOINT, but it is various forms of legitimate pressure that may make you shell out more than you really think it's worth.

I’m going to quibble with some of your language. I take your textbook point; that textbooks have always been expensive doesn’t negate it. And yes, students don’t have much choice in the mattter. However, that’s a horse of quite a different color from wanting to read the book following a cliff hanger, which I don’t think qualifies as a “need” even in quotes. As far as entertainment goes, books really are pretty fungible. It would be different if there weren’t a lot of books out there that are cheap or free to access.

I also think that when you buy something, you can’t pay more than you think it’s worth. It might be more than you think it’s intrinsically worth, but other factors have to bring it up to the actual cost. You can pay less than you think something’s worth, but you really can’t pay more.

If you feel the price is unjustly high (even allowing for free market capitalism), it's perfectly legitimate to push for better prices in ways other than merely not buying.

Sure. Although I don’t know how you go about it. Moral suasion? Government price-fixing?

[Pajamaman]

Originally Posted by paulsalter

Can you remember what they where or what the new price is?

The only reason i am interested is to see what the price ends with

My unscientific way of seeing what effect this has on a price, is to see what pence are paid
Eg, Books that are £x.99, £2.99, £9.99 look like the price hasnt changed
Books that are £0.79, £x.32 or other odd looking numbers have had the discount

Very rough guide and i am sure there will be examples where this isnt the case

One I quoted above:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/v...rice-rsj0ndg2p

The second is goodereader, and he appears to regurgitate some of the times article stats, which is handy as the times article is behind a paywall:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/v...rice-rsj0ndg2p

I find the Times article particularly risible as the Times is published by one of the corporations that lobbied for the removal of VAT, which was always intended solely for the benefit of publishers. Bad Amazon!

So I take it back. I don't know that Amazon have increased their prices or not. Saying that, just the brief survey of prices between ebook.com and amazon.co.uk was eye opening. I thought Amazon kept their prices low. Apparently not.

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Why do you think the price with VAT equals the same price when VAT is removed?

20% is added to the price. That money goes to the government. So when VAT is not added, the price is the price before VAT is added.

I'm surprised that issybird hasn't swooped down on you for that. One more example of you making false claims because of faulty thinking and faulty math.

If an item is priced £5 and VAT is 20% then VAT is £1 and the ex VAT price you are so obsessed with is £4, so 25% is added to that price.

Not only have you been wasting everyone's time by your ceaseless insistence that the amount paid at the point of sale is not the price when that is the very definition of price, but you screw up your math by using the ex VAT price as the basis for applying the VAT rate.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by issybird

I’m going to quibble with some of your language. I take your textbook point; that textbooks have always been expensive doesn’t negate it. And yes, students don’t have much choice in the mattter. However, that’s a horse of quite a different color from wanting to read the book following a cliff hanger, which I don’t think qualifies as a “need” even in quotes. As far as entertainment goes, books really are pretty fungible. It would be different if there weren’t a lot of books out there that are cheap or free to access.

I also think that when you buy something, you can’t pay more than you think it’s worth. It might be more than you think it’s intrinsically worth, but other factors have to bring it up to the actual cost. You can pay less than you think something’s worth, but you really can’t pay more.

The language on both sides is imprecise, but I hope the examples made the point clear. You saying "you can’t pay more than you think it’s worth" suggests you don't believe price gouging is a thing to be concerned with, and you don't believe usury can exist. It's "worth" paying 1000% per week interest because I don't want my legs broken.

I believe there is a spectrum of "need" and of "worth" and that there does not need to be an arbitrary hard threshold set at, say, life-and-death issues. Similarly, there is a spectrum of appropriate responses. Which segues nicely to....

Sure. Although I don’t know how you go about it. Moral suasion? Government price-fixing?

Sure, there's a range of possible responses. In the case of gouging or usury, maybe a call for government action is warranted. In the case of book three in the series being priced $2 higher than you think it should, maybe a letter to the publisher expressing your displeasure, and telling them how when you go to pick out your next random genre book, you may be inclined to avoid their imprints...a customer-dissatisfaction boycott of one (or more if others share your opinion).
And there's a range in between. In the case of this VAT thing, maybe folks contact their government representatives (they have those in VAT countries, right?) and push for tax reform. Maybe something like asking that in order to qualify for corporate tax breaks like this, some savings must be passed on to the consumer. That's just an example, I don't know how VAT works, how foreign law works, and I'm generally not in favor of that kind of government meddling.

[paulsalter]

Originally Posted by Pajamaman

One I quoted above:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/v...rice-rsj0ndg2p

The second is goodereader, and he appears to regurgitate some of the times article stats, which is handy as the times article is behind a paywall:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/v...rice-rsj0ndg2p

I find the Times article particularly risible as the Times is published by one of the corporations that lobbied for the removal of VAT, which was always intended solely for the benefit of publishers. Bad Amazon!

So I take it back. I don't know that Amazon have increased their prices or not. Saying that, just the brief survey of prices between ebook.com and amazon.co.uk was eye opening. I thought Amazon kept their prices low. Apparently not.

Thanks for the article

Problem with brief surveys is you can get them to give you any answer you want

I have just had a look at the top 5 bestsellers on Amazon
Non of them are on eBooks and they are all priced at £3.29 which looks like they have had the reduction

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Pajamaman

I did a quick price check on ebook.com vs amazon.co.uk.

5 books:
3 the same,
one 20% cheaper on ebook.com,
one 50% cheaper on ebook.com.

Check out other eBooks from the same publisher that's 20% cheaper and see if it's a VAT reduction savings from that publisher.

[Pajamaman]

Originally Posted by paulsalter

Thanks for the article

Problem with brief surveys is you can get them to give you any answer you want

I have just had a look at the top 5 bestsellers on Amazon
Non of them are on eBooks and they are all priced at £3.29 which looks like they have had the reduction

https://www.ebooks.com/en-gb/book/78...antony-beevor/
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stalingrad-...2379973&sr=8-2

4.58 vs 5.99

https://www.ebooks.com/en-gb/book/45...t/william-gay/
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Twilight-Wi...2380074&sr=8-4

3.33 vs 6.66

That's from a random sample of 5 books. Not cherry picked. I don't know why Amazon is so much more expensive.

[SleepyBob]

Originally Posted by issybird

As far as entertainment goes, books really are pretty fungible. It would be different if there weren’t a lot of books out there that are cheap or free to access.

Huh? Books are absolutely not fungible. When I go to read a book, I want to read that specific book, not some Harlequin romance.

[DiapDealer]

You need to look up the definition of absolutely.

[cfrizz]

Originally Posted by SleepyBob

Huh? Books are absolutely not fungible. When I go to read a book, I want to read that specific book, not some Harlequin romance.

Read this article.

https://platformthing.com/2012/05/17/fungible-ebooks/

I won't buy any of my favorite writers books at the prices they charge. I'll try to get it at the library, otherwise I will buy 2-3 other books instead with that money. If I happen to come across a sale of said book at 2.99 or less, THEN I will buy it. Otherwise, I will keep reading the tons of other books that I have.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by cfrizz

Read this article.

https://platformthing.com/2012/05/17/fungible-ebooks/

I won't buy any of my favorite writers books at the prices they charge. I'll try to get it at the library, otherwise I will buy 2-3 other books instead with that money. If I happen to come across a sale of said book at 2.99 or less, THEN I will buy it. Otherwise, I will keep reading the tons of other books that I have.

Obviously there are some people who care more about price than they about specific authors and books, while others who care more about authors and specific books than they do about rock bottom prices. That's why you have Costco and Whole Food. Not everyone wants exactly what you want and not everyone wants exactly what I want. That's why some authors churn out best selling book after best selling book and others are simply generic authors.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Obviously there are some people who care more about price than they about specific authors and books, while others who care more about authors and specific books than they do about rock bottom prices. That's why you have Costco and Whole Food. Not everyone wants exactly what you want and not everyone wants exactly what I want. That's why some authors churn out best selling book after best selling book and others are simply generic authors.

And some would consider authors who churn out best selling book after best selling book to BE simply generic authors.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

And some would consider authors who churn out best selling book after best selling book to BE simply generic authors.

Those people are jealous

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ApK

Those people are jealous

Of what?