Why don't E-readers have a Replaceable Battery

[shalym]

Never mind...misread the original post

Shari

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by kyteflyer

they need my fingerprint

Originally Posted by mdp

Successfully replicated with gummy bears in the history of security.

I hear these stories and yeah, they're humorous.

But honestly, the point of facial recognition or fingerprints is mostly to prevent someone who stole your phone or even picked it up off of a table somewhere from accessing your stuff. If some nefarious person manages to plan ahead enough to leave out some gummy bears knowing that I will a) pick one up and b) decide I don't need it and c) leave the now fingerprinted gummy bear and my forgotten phone unattended on a table... Well, that person deserves access to my phone. That's some James Bond stuff there.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

I hear these stories and yeah, they're humorous.

But honestly, the point of facial recognition or fingerprints is mostly to prevent someone who stole your phone or even picked it up off of a table somewhere from accessing your stuff. If some nefarious person manages to plan ahead enough to leave out some gummy bears knowing that I will a) pick one up and b) decide I don't need it and c) leave the now fingerprinted gummy bear and my forgotten phone unattended on a table... Well, that person deserves access to my phone. That's some James Bond stuff there.

Fortunately for me, I don't eat gummy bears, so I guess I'm safe.

If you really, really want to break into most smartphones, there is software that will do that. Expensive as all get out software, but it exists. Like most security measures, fingerprint and face recognition is designed to deter casual thieves.

[Luffy]

I'd like to add some pizzazz to the discussion by saying that I never ate a gummy bear and will probably never eat one.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Fortunately for me, I don't eat gummy bears, so I guess I'm safe.

Originally Posted by Luffy

I'd like to add some pizzazz to the discussion by saying that I never ate a gummy bear and will probably never eat one.

For kyteflyer's nefarious chicanery to work, you need to not eat the gummy bear, but you do need to pick one up and leave a good enough fingerprint on it (I'm assuming the bear s/he mentioned was an undigested one).

Like you two, I have the good taste to not enjoy gummy bears, so my phone is safe.

[mdp]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

If some nefarious person manages to plan ahead enough to leave out some gummy bears knowing that I will a) pick one up and b) decide I don't need it and c) leave the now fingerprinted gummy bear

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Fortunately for me, I don't eat gummy bears, so I guess I'm safe

No no no no no no no no, I do not know if this is a surge of humourous irony but I never meant anything like such unplausible scheme (which still, anyway, in the big numbers...) depicted by Zod: I meant that gummy bears were proven to be a sufficient medium to replicate a fingerprint.
The case I meant was an Australian school (I believe) that implemented a presence recording system based on fingerprints: the pupils soon found out it could be circumvented.
In the above case, the circumvention happened with the participation of the fingerprint owner - so it was not meant to be an overlapping parallel with the case of accessing phones.

The OP wrote «they need my fingerprint»: well I expressed that they are probably everywhere, and that the medium may be, supposedly possibly surprisingly, not a problem. The protection layer gets weaker, maybe the remaining gaps can be filled.

Of course it takes an effort to circumvent a system, and the effort is reasonably spent in front of an adequate reward. If the reward is "this bloke can transfer money through the phone", the effort is easily paid, is not it? I already know of actual cases (and, before you make the next step - which were rejected by the bank's insurance. Litigation).

EDIT: by the way - the topic were replaceable batteries.

EDIT2:

Originally Posted by theducks

And NO ONLINE BANKING type apps. Someone piks my phone, they just get my contacts (and some tunes)

Good. See? As per the above, I know of cases of theft personally (EDIT3: before anybody skims too violently, WITHOUT the use of gummy bears). And I know from other networks that there are all the conditions for it to increase in the next few years. And I repeat, to the best of my information those thefts were left uncovered by that "last resort" of banks, the insurance.

[mdp]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Like most security measures, fingerprint and face recognition is designed to deter casual thieves.

The problem is not given by added deterrence, the problem is given by added security weak spots. Biometrics at the teller would be added security. Allowing by contract money transfer through shouting an agreement in the air is an added weak spot.

In other words: your problem should not be the casual thieves when you have inserted a weak spot in the security implementation, it should be exactly the professionals.

[jago25_98]

They could cut costs by having a base version with a very cheap battery and allow an upgrade to a better battery. That's how strong the incentive must be to make the battery planned obsolesce. 2 way radios and drills always had hot swappable batteries because it's convenient but consumer stuff doesn't get that. It must be a really, really strong incentive to not provide this. It's still weird to me.

AFAIK the last, highest spec phone you can get with a removable battery was the LG V20. It also had a headphone jack, sdcard, IR blaster and DAC quality audio. It had 4GB of RAM but bad thermal cooling and LG boatware software. You could replace the battery with a monster 11000mah brick. All of us V20 owners are waiting for a phone that can replace that phone.

We've been waiting a few years.

The Fairphone, Pinephone and a few others have passed but they've all been lower spec. In particular, less than 4gb RAM on android is a problem and while the Pinephone doesn't run android it's about 1.5-2x more expensive spec wise than a Xiaomi or whatever.
As a reference, the Fairphone3 is 4GB RAM like the LG V20 but the V20 is 80EUR new and the Fairphone is €450!

My plan is to wait as long as I can and eventually if I have to I'll just give up, buy sealed phones and split them with dry ice to replace the batteries.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by jago25_98

AFAIK the last, highest spec phone you can get with a removable battery was the LG V20. It also had a headphone jack, sdcard, IR blaster and DAC quality audio. It had 4GB of RAM but bad thermal cooling and LG boatware software. You could replace the battery with a monster 11000mah brick. All of us V20 owners are waiting for a phone that can replace that phone.

As a reference, the Fairphone3 is 4GB RAM like the LG V20 but the V20 is 80EUR new and the Fairphone is €450!

Of course fans of niche tech failing to support small manufacturers doing their best to manufacture that niche tech is why that tech doesn't succeed.

Any time I see someone saying 'wouldn't it be nice if there was a phone that did such and such...' and then that phone is released by a small company that doesn't benefit from economy of scale and has to price accordingly only to eventually fail tells me that there really isn't enough demand. Even the die hards won't put their money where their mouth is.

For a similar case, see this thread on the Light Phone.

[Apache]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Of course fans of niche tech failing to support small manufacturers doing their best to manufacture that niche tech is why that tech doesn't succeed.

Any time I see someone saying 'wouldn't it be nice if there was a phone that did such and such...' and then that phone is released by a small company that doesn't benefit from economy of scale and has to price accordingly only to eventually fail tells me that there really isn't enough demand. Even the die hards won't put their money where their mouth is.

For a similar case, see this thread on the Light Phone.

No matter how much people claim to want something they still want it at a cheap price. In my business they majority of people will exclaim about how gorgeous a high quality ring is, but when they see the price they would rather buy something for less that is ultra light and set with industrial grade diamonds.
Apache

[Frenzie]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Even the die hards won't put their money where their mouth is.

I bought a Sailfish license. Can I play?

User-upgradeable RAM didn't play a role when I bought my current laptop because it didn't even cross my mind that it might be soldered on. Next time I'll do better. Mine's four years old now; I guess I'll replace it when the battery wears down. Wasteful, I know. :-/

[Richwood]

Maybe I have too many older ebook readers but My Kindle 2, Kindle DX, Kindle Keyboard, Kindle NT and Sony PRS 350, PRS 650, PRS 950 and PRS T series readers all still have batteries that will hold a charge well enough to use for a days reading or longer. Currently using a Kindle DX to read a book I downloaded long ago.

I also have the newest readers from Kindle, Kobo and Nook but do not really find the added bells and whistles to be that necessary for my reading enjoyment. In my experience the major reader manufacturers have always tried to fit high grade lithium ion batteries to their book readers so battery life has not been a major issue. Particularly true as ebook readers are very low power devices compared to cellular phones or color LCD tablets so that frequent recharging is not as necessary, particularly if wifi/3g/4g communication is off and reading light use is minimized.

I would add that unless the internal lithium ion battery is totally dead then continued use of a reader via a current technology 5000 to 10000 mAh super thin and compact USB battery pack is possible. Attach to the reader back or case via velcro, double stick tape or magnets and the shortest USB cable available.

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by Richwood

...In my experience the major reader manufacturers have always tried to fit high grade lithium ion batteries to their book readers so battery life has not been a major issue. Particularly true as ebook readers are very low power devices compared to cellular phones or color LCD tablets so that frequent recharging is not as necessary...

That is the nub of the matter for ereaders and can be easily shown by looking at charge cycles.

Lithium Ion batteries are usually claimed by their manufacturers to have a usable life of 500 or more full charge cycles. Even if one goes mad and says that an E Ink ereader gets the equivalent of 1 full charge per week (for example, one 30% charge and one 70% charge in the week) then the battery is claimed to remain usable for 500 weeks, say 10 years.

My experience is that the 500 charge cycles is conservative and I suspect that most ereaders need charging less frequently than I set out so it seems that in the above simple look there is little need for ereader batteries to be user replaceable as on charge cycles one can expect a life greater than 10 years.

But I suspect for most people their ereader battery life will be time limited through aging or left discharged or close to discharge, so that the battery is damaged by self discharge taking it into full chemical discharge, rather than ever reaching the full number of charge cycles.

An interesting case is Citizen Eco-Drive watches, for example, as they are claimed to be able to run for 6 to 12 months on a charge without solar charging in that period. So if one takes the recharge period as being 6 months, for example, and the battery manufacturer's specified usable charge cycles (500 if I recall correctly for the Panasonic batteries that have been used) then one comes up with a battery life of 250 years based on charge cycles. Of course the batteries last very much less than that if only just through aging issues.

[John F]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

That is the nub of the matter for ereaders and can be easily shown by looking at charge cycles.

Lithium Ion batteries are usually claimed by their manufacturers to have a usable life of 500 or more full charge cycles. Even if one goes mad and says that an E Ink ereader gets the equivalent of 1 full charge per week (for example, one 30% charge and one 70% charge in the week) then the battery is claimed to remain usable for 500 weeks, say 10 years.

My experience is that the 500 charge cycles is conservative and I suspect that most ereaders need charging less frequently than I set out so it seems that in the above simple look there is little need for ereader batteries to be user replaceable as on charge cycles one can expect a life greater than 10 years.

But I suspect for most people their ereader battery life will be time limited through aging or left discharged or close to discharge, so that the battery is damaged by self discharge taking it into full chemical discharge, rather than ever reaching the full number of charge cycles.

An interesting case is Citizen Eco-Drive watches, for example, as they are claimed to be able to run for 6 to 12 months on a charge without solar charging in that period. So if one takes the recharge period as being 6 months, for example, and the battery manufacturer's specified usable charge cycles (500 if I recall correctly for the Panasonic batteries that have been used) then one comes up with a battery life of 250 years based on charge cycles. Of course the batteries last very much less than that if only just through aging issues.

And what do the same manufacturers claim for a lifespan time? For example, one of my lion devices is about 3 years old, and it appears its life is decreasing dramatically, and it probably goes through about one charge cycle a week.

[Frenzie]

Originally Posted by John F

And what do the same manufacturers claim for a lifespan time? For example, one of my lion devices is about 3 years old, and it appears its life is decreasing dramatically, and it probably goes through about one charge cycle a week.

But don't worry, you're still well within its usable life! The thing still turns on, doesn't it?