Page Numbers, Percentage, or nothing at all

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by dordale

I personally hope they don't go back to the old way of counting total book pages without giving users the option to use screen counts instead.

I don't think they will. I got an email from Kobo today touting the new system.

Nonfiction (Now fiction?) readers have new reasons to love Kobo eReaders

NEW FEATURE

You told us you wanted to get lost in your story, not in your eBook—and we listened. We're excited to announce we've updated our interface with you mind to make your reading experience even better.

Know where you are, and how far you've got to go

Our updated header and footer show you exactly where you are in your eBook, while a progress bar shows you how much you've read, and how much is left.

I'm not sure what being "lost in your story, not in your eBook" is supposed to mean, but this makes it pretty clear that Kobo sees this as their future. Kind of ironic in my case, but I need criteria to use in paring down my eReaders anyhow... so this actually ends up helping me.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by rcentros

I don't think they will. I got an email from Kobo today touting the new system.

When this change came up in the beta, I commented that there would be some who wouldn't like it. I doubt very much if they will change back to offering the old version.

My take on all this, is that over the years, we have had a lot more questions from new Kobo users about the Adobe RMSDK page numbering than the per-screen numbering. I would say that the two most common comments are:

• But the page numbers don't match the paper book.
• The page number doesn't change when I turn the page.

The response to the first one is usually, "Which edition?" followed by an explanation. For the second, there is an explanation plus the suggestion to use kepubs. I think this change is an indication of how many similar questions Kobo gets.

Personally, I'm not that fussed. I use both epubs and kepubs depending on the source and the content. In calibre I calculate the ADE page number and a word count. These get put into the comments when I send the book. I use that if I'm really interested in the size of the book when I am choosing one. But, I also just use the file size. And please, don't anyone bother telling me how useless that is. I know exactly how useless, but, as I am the curator of my library, I also have a good understanding of my books. After all, I can quickly look at the hardcover on my shelf and discover it has unusually thick covers making it look bigger than it really is.

Overall, word count is probably the best estimate of book size. But, how to count the words in a book is probably going to start as big an argument as what is a page. I have been involved in that argument a couple of times already, so I'm not going there.

The other problem with using word counts, is that I don't have a good concept of how long a book is based on word count. I know 100,000 words is longer than 90,000, but, I don't yet have a good idea of how much time it would take me to read these. I have a much better idea of how long a 285 and 315 page book would take to read. So, I still use the Adobe numbers as a guestimate, but once I'm reading, it doesn't matter that much.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by rcentros

Really it's calling these arbitrary numbers "pages" that bothers me. Call them anything else and it probably wouldn't be as big a deal, but they would still be useless. Kindle used "location" numbers (still does on some books) instead of page numbers. You couldn't correlate them with page numbers either, but at least they were consistent and the location on one Kindle equaled the location on another (even if you changed font size or face).

On this I think we can agree. There is no page for ebooks and calling them pages is disingenuous. Let us instead switch to a static system which accurately reflects ebooks properly. I’ve suggested word count which would still give you the correlation to printed books, 500,000 words for a doorstop novel equipment. It gives me something that isn’t just pulled out of a hat and slapped on because some executive wanted to keep pages around. And it gives academics a precise way to reference a part of a book. I suppose we can even call it All Datapoint Exceptions or something so Jon can keep using ADE.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by rcentros

I don't think they will. I got an email from Kobo today touting the new system.



I'm not sure what being "lost in your story, not in your eBook" is supposed to mean, but this makes it pretty clear that Kobo sees this as their future. Kind of ironic in my case, but I need criteria to use in paring down my eReaders anyhow... so this actually ends up helping me.

Curious to me that they specified non fiction and then cite stories. Not exactly how I think of non fiction per se, and very much something I think fiction fans would appreciate.

I suspect non fiction fans might appreciate a more robust non fiction library though I have only my fathers impression on Kobos non fiction offerings as compared to Amazon. Suffice to say he wasn’t impressed.

[davidfor]

Having had my say above, in playing with epubs over the years, I have seen some things that demonstrate how bad the Adobe RMSDK page count algorithm is. The attached book shows this.

It has five chapters. Each chapter has a title followed by fifty paragraphs. Each paragraph has almost exactly the same number of letters in them (the paragraphs are numbered so the first nine have one less letter). The first chapter uses the "Lorem ipsum" text for each paragraph. The others use a copy of this that has been passed through the ScrambleEbook plugin in calibre. Each paragraph has a class and these are all the same lengths. This means that, apart from the chapter title, each chapter has exactly the same number of characters in it.

How to use this:

• Copy the book directly to the device. Do not add this to calibre and then send it to the device.
• Before opening this book on your device, turn on the Adobe Numbers and make sure that both the chapter and book page numbers are shown.
• Open it and page through it.
• Look at the total pages for each chapter.
• Watch the page numbers as you go through it.

Chapter 4 didn't work as well as I hoped. But, the rest demonstrate the problems inherent in the Adobe RMSDK page numbering algorithm. It's easy to game it. But, it's probably the simplest and most universal method we have for comparing the number of "pages" in ebooks. But, it is not as standard.

If you put another copy directly on the device and change the name to end in ".kepub.epub", you can see how the kepub renderer treats it. Don't worry about the lack of spans as you don't really need them except to remember locations.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Curious to me that they specified non fiction and then cite stories. Not exactly how I think of non fiction per se, and very much something I think fiction fans would appreciate.

Now that I look on my computer (rather than my cellphone) I see that was subject line of the email -- not the title of the blurb. I'm guessing what they meant to write was "Now fiction readers have new reasons to love Kobo eReaders." That would make a lot more sense.

Originally Posted by MGlitch

I suspect non fiction fans might appreciate a more robust non fiction library though I have only my fathers impression on Kobos non fiction offerings as compared to Amazon. Suffice to say he wasn’t impressed.

I think it was a typo. I should have looked at a little closer before posting. I've grayed it out and will put what I think they really meant in parentheses.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Since we seem to be divided into two camps, the adjust to the future camp, and the stay with the standards camp...

So, these books are, largely, all written on a computer. Likely in MS Word or something (I know George R.R. Martin uses some depreciated word processing program but I'd imagine this holds true even on that.

When you change the font, change the size, change line spacing, change the margins, etc. what happens in these programs? Oh? Does the page count increase?

If anything that would be the closest representation to a "page" we have for ebooks, since it's a direct correlation to a physical page printed from that computer. Of course you can squeeze a ton of type on it, or expand a single letter to take the whole page. And until you print it out and can no longer adjust it (thus invalidating it as a comparison to a format which can be nigh infinitely adjusted), any change to the type does exactly what the current Kobo software does.

There's your standard: digital pages always adjusted to typographical changes, until ADE came along and derailed the standard. Finally Kobo has returned us to the original standard by which a digital page was measured.

Adobe introduced a new standard that works better then the old and is a lot more reliable. What is you you hate ADE page numbers?

[pazos]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Adobe introduced a new standard that works better then the old and is a lot more reliable. What is you you hate ADE page numbers?

Could you please post a single link outside of your own quotes where ADE page numbers are referred as a standard?

If not, are you the authority that established ADE page numbers as a standard?.

My mother tongue isn't english. I'm using https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/standard to try to understand your point, but I cannot find a definition.

I guess your definition of standard is "something" that's implemented in some software that has most users for a specific task. In that regard I can certainly say that VBA macros are a standard in spreadsheet software because MS Office use them and most of the spreadsheet macros used on the last 15 years are done with them. But that's hardly a standard IMHO.

[4691mls]

Originally Posted by rcentros

I look at it this way. When I'm deciding which book to read next, the length will often be a deciding factor. "I've got so many hours before... I should be able to finish this book in that time."

.....

Yes, easily gauging the length of a book is important to me — as is reading the front material (preface, etc.). Call me a Luddite.

This is the main reason I liked having page numbers rather than screen counts.

Originally Posted by dordale

As I mentioned before, I personally like having a dynamic numbering system that represents screens rather than a fixed "page" size. I'm very happy with the introduction of this in the new firmware versions.

As others have mentioned, if you prefer a fixed "page" size the solution is to use ePubs instead of kePubs. Rcentros has made some valid arguments as to why this isn't always the best solution. Kobo seems to be lot better at giving people options than Amazon is. Maybe in a future firmware release they'll give us both options of "pages" and "screens".

I personally hope they don't go back to the old way of counting total book pages without giving users the option to use screen counts instead.

People keep saying "just read epubs, not kepubs". Well, I got my Kobo reader largely because I can obtain library books on it when I am away from home after my Sony reader lost the ability to do this due to Overdrive system changes.

For example, I receive an email notification on my phone that a book I've had on hold for weeks or months has finally become available. I can use the Overdrive app on my phone to check it out, then sync my Kobo reader to get a copy. But I can't choose to get an epub vs a kepub.

I do think MGlitch and others have a point that word count is probably the best way to go. But until that happens, I think Kobo should give us a choice between tne new screen counts and the previous numbering system.

[issybird]

Reading this thread does make me wonder how the vernacular police get through their day. They must be in a constant state of outrage, what with dialing a phone number, rolling down a car window and so forth.

Even as I type this message, I wonder, "Where's the type?" Shh! I don't want them to come after me.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by rcentros

I look at it this way. When I'm deciding which book to read next, the length will often be a deciding factor.

So if you're choosing between three or four different books, do you open each one on your reader to see what the page count is?

"I've got so many hours before... I should be able to finish this book in that time."

Kobo should give you an estimate of how long it will take you to read the book (I believe. As mentioned, I really don't use this feature much).

And I still "see" (and think) printed books when I sit down to read eBooks. Wasn't the whole point of an eInk eReader to emulate the printed reading experience? Isn't page count one of those features.

Yes, and if I were reading a book where turning from one page (screen) to the next left me at page 288 and then the next page was numbered as page 290, I would think the book wasn't put together very well.

E-ink emulates the reading experience. That's not the same as saying it has to exactly duplicate some particular edition of the paper book when it comes to page count.

[4691mls]

Kobo's remaining-time estimates don't seem work for me. I'm not sure what they're based on - maybe they include the times I've left a page open while I went to the restroom, answered the phone, etc. so the page stayed the same until the reader fell asleep ten minutes later, therefore Kobo thinks it will take me ten minutes per page to finish the book?

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by davidfor

My take on all this, is that over the years, we have had a lot more questions from new Kobo users about the Adobe RMSDK page numbering than the per-screen numbering. I would say that the two most common comments are:

• But the page numbers don't match the paper book.
• The page number change when I turn the page.

True. When my sister (who doesn't have an ereader) was visiting, she read some awful James Patterson book on my Nook. Immediately, she thought the book was screwed up because the number didn't change as she turned the page.

Edit: Funny enough, she also had no problem picking up where she's left off, even though the ePub page numbers didn't identically match the page numbers of her paperback at home! I guess wizard powers run in the family.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

People keep saying "just read epubs, not kepubs". Well, I got my Kobo reader largely because I can obtain library books on it when I am away from home after my Sony reader lost the ability to do this due to Overdrive system changes.

For example, I receive an email notification on my phone that a book I've had on hold for weeks or months has finally become available. I can use the Overdrive app on my phone to check it out, then sync my Kobo reader to get a copy. But I can't choose to get an epub vs a kepub.

Honestly, does it really matter in the grand scheme of things if that Agatha Christie book you borrowed from the library for two weeks has an inaccurate (to you) page count? If that is such a big problem, life is good.

I read for years on my Nook which had inaccurate (to me) page counts. But hey, the convenience of the thing made up for the page weirdness.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by rcentros

I'm not sure what being "lost in your story, not in your eBook" is supposed to mean, but this makes it pretty clear that Kobo sees this as their future. Kind of ironic in my case, but I need criteria to use in paring down my eReaders anyhow... so this actually ends up helping me.

To draw an analogy, there are professed audiophiles who go on about how quiet (lack of noise like electrical hum) a piece of equipment is or how good a particular set of headphones are at reproducing micro-details (whatever those are). They're not listening to the music; they're listening to the equipment. I think this is the same kind of thing in reverse. Kobo are attempting to get the mechanics of presenting the content out of the experience of reading the content.