Do some publishers have any idea?

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Timboli

[...]Refer to my comments above.
I cannot argue, for the reasons you say and other factors, about what a fair price for a book is. I can only look at what publishers have decided is fair for a physical book, look at the law of averages and then look at how much less an ebook should cost, which is quantifiable.

The cost of an ebook should not be arbitrary in relation to a physical book.

Why?

If you are not going to argue with my comment: "The price of a book is independent of the book's production effort. Fairness simply isn't part of the equation." Why should we expect ebook prices to be at all related to production costs when paper book prices are not?

It's really that simple.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

I see this in the TOS for Amazon Video. I've seen many posts from users complaining that their accounts have been locked, or they are blocked from watching video, after it had worked for them using a VPN. It stands to reason if Amazon is going to use "technology to verify your location" that they would take action if a user was found to be disguising their location.

I've often wondered about the users who aren't doing an end run around the location limits, but simply using a VPN for privacy reasons.

I thought I had read a similar statement about the Kindle Store, but Amazon has recently been updated and moving some help pages around, and I don't see it now. I might be mistaken in my memory.

Thanks for posting this. The last time I looked I saw no such term in relation to Kindle books. It doesn't particularly surprise me to see this term in relation to Amazon video. I would also not be surprised to see a similar term in relation to Amazon Music. It is interesting that you are in breach of the Kindle Store T&C if you remove DRM, but apparently not if you circumvent geo-blocking.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by gmw

Why?

If you are not going to argue with my comment: "The price of a book is independent of the book's production effort. Fairness simply isn't part of the equation." Why should we expect ebook prices to be at all related to production costs when paper book prices are not?

It's really that simple.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

A book is written, it is then valued ... or valued beforehand.

Then you have two formats.

The physical format has more costs involved, that need to be attached to determine the profit, because it is gonna naturally cost more to provide.

So lets say the author writes a book and wants $5 in return.

That's the value plus $5 for each ebook.
And value plus $5 plus production and provider costs for each physical version.

That's taking the value as including editing & artwork costs, and production just being printing related costs, and providing being storage and transport etc costs.

What's so hard to understand about that?

P.S. I find the notion that a book is sold for a price that has no bearing on what it costs to produce as being totally nonsensical. Everything has a base price, how else do you determine profit? How do you make enough money to cover costs and pay royalties etc?

P.S.S. Of course a lot of the value and return to the author is often pre-determined before the book is even written, and all part of some deal.

[gmw]

Timboli, what you describe makes perfect sense but it doesn't work that way. I'm pretty sure they'd have break downs per book that show what you're talking about, but those break downs do not govern the book price. What they can feasibly sell the book for governs the price. (Genre fiction sells for "this much", non-fictions sells for "that much".) You can see it in both the paper book and ebook pricing. Certainly paper books may have some minimum before it sells at a loss, but once it has been printed almost any sale is better than no sale*. You'd have to see more of the financial details of the publishers to understand all the ins and outs of this stuff, but the evidence is there in the prices, in paper and digital.


* Note that big publishers typically have print runs rather than only printing on demand. So they are not looking at $5 per book, but at some thousands per thousand books. The costs occur in big chunks, the sales occur in small amounts, and they have to allow for returns. All this changes how things work, and what seems sensible on a theoretical book-by-book basis becomes meaningless in the real world.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by Timboli

So lets say the author writes a book and wants $5 in return.

More likely with what I read, the author writes a book proposal. The publisher than buys the proposal and receives an advance. The author, with assistance from a great many other people, who will be credited in the acknowledgements, then takes two years to write it.

Most likely, the author doesn't sell enough copies to receive royalties.

And, most likely, the publisher loses money on the book.

Some years, not every year, there will be a few books that sell so well as to make back the money on all the losers.

I've just given you a research non-fiction model, since that's mostly what I read. Fiction is different, but not totally. The value the publisher gives is to fund research, improve manuscripts, and to reduce some of the great economic risks inherent in being an book author. If you don't find value in that, buy indie. If you do find value in that, but don't find value in being about to adjust the font size, wait a few years and buy a used paper copy.

Originally Posted by Timboli

Everything has a base price, how else do you determine profit? How do you make enough money to cover costs and pay royalties etc?

You seem to be thinking that under normal circumstances, the publisher can set a price that almost guarantees a profit. That sounds like what happens when someone creates a platform where anyone can put out a book of any quality for the public. It doesn't sound like what any publisher whose books I read does.

[Timboli]

NOTE - This was written before I saw the other two replies.

An extension to my last post.

I wasn't born yesterday, and I have been buying books for about 5 decades, and interested in all the ins and outs for almost that long.

I have read many reports by authors about publishers, from various sources including biographies. I have even been involved through my wife with getting a book printed and then flogged to stores to sell, and know intimately of others.

Stores from what I know, take a huge cut, something no ebook really needs to pay ... nothing like what Amazon asks for instance.

Deals publishers make with authors have involved lump sums or royalties or both etc.

A publisher more than anything else, is a business, and businesses need to make profits. So the farcical notion that cost of production etc doesn't figure is just ludicrous to the extreme. Publishers get big discounts for big runs or lots of service etc, and have special deals with book shops, but the cost is still not small. It costs more to have a book displayed at a prominent position in a store.

Leaving whatever money the author gets out of a book, you cannot ignore that the publisher is doing everything for their own profit, so that means every cost is counted.

[Timboli]

I don't disagree with some of what you both say, but the idea that authors are just getting by, as you are seeming to infer, just flies in the face of what I know. Though I don't doubt that is the reality for a good number of them. How many and why, is really the question.

As I have mentioned before, they need to change their model, as it is outdated. There are publishers out there who have already done so.

And there are many authors who have given up their traditional publishers and gone Indie. Trust and believability are thin on the ground.

P.S. I am not saying that any price guarantees a profit. However, all things going well they would have a base price to work on. And I still fail to see why ebooks need to incur more profit, thus be a higher price. If ebooks did not exist, then that option would not exist. Physical book prices are pretty much what they have been for a long time, pre-ebooks. So from every which way I look at it, ebooks are being used to grab more profit. You can say it is helping more to offset the real cost, but that is kind of meaningless. Most of the cost in a book is production and providing costs. So what is really happening, is that ebooks are keeping the old model alive for those who don't use ebooks.

If you take physical books completely out of the equation for a moment, and look at what is involved just for them, it all becomes much clearer. With an ebook, there is no need to get a return on something that has incurred all the other costs. There is no book sitting on a shelf costing money and not yet paid for. Of course, I am being simplistic with that, because there are costs for every book, regardless of format ... editing, artwork, promotion, etc. But the outlay before sale is minuscule in comparison, so risks are far less, and the royalty model eases the burden. The losses on a failure are far smaller and the need for a large return on release are barely there.

[janrey]

This is why I have been getting most of the books I am reading from the library. There are a few authors who aren't in my library that I do purchase but basically no I don't buy them unless they are cheap. There are many good authors whose books are below $10 but generally the mass market, top 10 list books are $12.99 and higher. This is not so bad when you buy the physical book because you can lend it and even resell it to a used book store but you can't even lend most ebooks. If they allowed the lending option that would be great. I realize that ebooks never fall apart, but they could limit it to say 3 -5 loans. Amazon has some they limit to one loan.

[Deskisamess]

Originally Posted by janrey

This is why I have been getting most of the books I am reading from the library. There are a few authors who aren't in my library that I do purchase but basically no I don't buy them unless they are cheap. There are many good authors whose books are below $10 but generally the mass market, top 10 list books are $12.99 and higher. This is not so bad when you buy the physical book because you can lend it and even resell it to a used book store but you can't even lend most ebooks. If they allowed the lending option that would be great. I realize that ebooks never fall apart, but they could limit it to say 3 -5 loans. Amazon has some they limit to one loan.

The lending option for Kindle books is controlled by the publisher. Loaning a device is the best way to mimic loaning a paper book. I know some folks who buy the lowest cost Kindle and loan it when they want to loan a book to a friend.

I rarely loaned my print books, because when I did, I got them back dogeared or worse.

I have 3 family members (who share some of my reading interests) with devices registered to my Amazon account. They have access to any book on my account.

[janrey]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Loaning your ebook to another, while not impossible if you don't mind breaking some rules you shouldn't have to, is problematic, especially where DRM is concerned. I often shared my books with my mother and father. To do that now, they need a device and I must be a so called bad boy, and they also willing to be naughty. I am sure, that in many instances, another copy is just bought, and once again the providers etc are laughing all the way to the bank.

I have gotten around the breaking the rules in loaning. I had purchased my mom a kindle years ago and set it up on my account so she could read whatever I purchased. Occasionally she would accidentally order a book since she had the kindle with ads which was quite ok with me but I would just call her and ask if she meant to order it and since she didn't I just returned it. Amazon was quite good about it. I also bought a friend a kindle and set her up with it using my account. She would never order a book. She has also drifted back to real books as she preferred them but she will sometimes take the kindle on a long trip rather than cart books around. The nice thing is that they don't see your password at all on the device so there is no issue with someone who proves untrustworthy getting into your account and ordering a room full of furniture ;-). It is also easy to go online and remove the device from your account if things don't work out.

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

Loaning a device is the best way to mimic loaning a paper book.

That is an interesting idea I had not considered. I've never been willing to loan owned/liberated ebook files, it was a judgment call, but somehow it felt like going too far over the line beyond the typical TOS with the seller. This is a pretty good idea just loaning the whole device, I assume the premise being the ebook is tied to the physical device and won't be used elsewhere. But for those who cloud sync as I do, what's to stop them from just simultaneously reading the device on a phone or whatever, while loaning say their Kindle to somebody else? Seems like maybe this could still get iffy, I don't know. Maybe not a problem. I've never tried it.

[spindlegirl]

Many years ago I was of the mindset that "all ebooks should be under $5" but I've since changed my stance. I remember when, if someone slipped a $20 in a birthday card many years ago, I'd head to the bookstore and buy printed books that were on my wish list and sometimes one book took the whole 20 bucks (Canadian).

These days I read e-books only and approach the purchase of such more like when I used to read print books. I used to load up on library books, and then save the purchase of one or two books I really had my eyes on. Nowadays if I want to read a new release, I pay whatever it costs, if I have the money. I recently paid $13.99 for "Notes on a Nervous Planet" by Matt Haig. But in general I can wait until a really wished for book goes on sale, while reading what I've borrowed or already own. I often range between $5-$10 these days for purchases.

To me, a book is a book. I think most people get indignant at e-book prices because they are of the opinion that ebooks are not "real books". I just love reading and will pay what I can afford or do without.

[janrey]

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

The lending option for Kindle books is controlled by the publisher. Loaning a device is the best way to mimic loaning a paper book. I know some folks who buy the lowest cost Kindle and loan it when they want to loan a book to a friend.

I rarely loaned my print books, because when I did, I got them back dogeared or worse.

I have 3 family members (who share some of my reading interests) with devices registered to my Amazon account. They have access to any book on my account.

Yes I know this, I just wish all publishers allowed it. Loaning a device isn't exactly like loaning a book. If I loan a book I can pick up another, if I loan the device I have to wait until they return the device. I always loaned books and rarely if ever wanted them back.

See my other post, I too do the sharing although my mom has passed now.

The point to me is, unless the book is by an author I love, I will not purchase it if is over $10 and even at the $9.99 price I have to think about it, read reviews over and over and question a book group I belong to to see if like minded readers read and liked it. I will wait and either get it from the library if available or watch my emails to see if they offer it on sale for a day then snatch it up. It doesn't matter to me because there are so many good books out there at lower prices.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Timboli

I don't disagree with some of what you both say, but the idea that authors are just getting by, as you are seeming to infer, just flies in the face of what I know. Though I don't doubt that is the reality for a good number of them. How many and why, is really the question.

As I have mentioned before, they need to change their model, as it is outdated. There are publishers out there who have already done so. [...]

Indeed there are publishers using different models, largely because they are addressing different markets. Print is still significant for the large publishers and the difficulties of dealing with physical books still an ever present reality.

The large publishers don't make profit book-by-book (except as they may assess the situation in retrospect), they make profit across a range of titles. The point of the exercise is to have enough titles that sell profitably that the business makes a profit - and I have no doubt that the big publishers achieve just that - but they don't do it by relying on a fixed profit margin for each copy of a book they produce. Production costs set the minimum required before profit is realised on any given book, but cannot be used to anticipate a margin because that will depend on sales, which are not know in advance.

Exactly how the costs vs sales distribute between hardcover, trade-paperback, mass-paperback and ebook is something you need to ask each publisher - and they're not saying. Publishers are used to the fact that margins will vary significantly for each title and edition, it's part of the business. And even if ebook sales end up paying for more than their fair share of the costs of production, so what? It's all part of producing the title, and while people continue to pay full prices for ebooks, publishers will continue to let them.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Timboli

As I have mentioned before, they need to change their model, as it is outdated. There are publishers out there who have already done so.

Need to change it? Why do they need to? The big publishers are commercially successful. Why change a successful business model?