Is it ever okay to condemn a book without even attempting to read it?

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by arjaybe

I never said that. I said it's okay to say that. I used "I" in my example as an example only. I think people should be free to publish it, free to criticize it and free to say it should never have been published. If they want to say that without having read it, they should be free to do that, too. See? Lots of freedom.

Nobody has suggested they should not be free to say it. Of course they are. The question is, would it be ok for them to say it? There's a difference.

For example, am I free to say "You're a fat pig" to a person I don't know, just because that person is overweight? Yes, I'm free to say it. Is it ok to say it? No, it isn't.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by arjaybe

I never said that. I said it's okay to say that. I used "I" in my example as an example only. I think people should be free to publish it, free to criticize it and free to say it should never have been published. If they want to say that without having read it, they should be free to do that, too. See? Lots of freedom.

But launching a crusade urging people not to buy it isn't just speech: it is action.

There is a difference between saying the book shouldn't have been published and raising/joining an online mob to stop it from being sold. One star campaigns aren't speech, they're deeds.

[arjaybe]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

But launching a crusade urging people not to buy it isn't just speech: it is action.

There is a difference between saying the book shouldn't have been published and raising/joining an online mob to stop it from being sold. One star campaigns aren't speech, they're deeds.

It's free expression. This is one example where the old term -- free speech -- is inadequate and why it has been replaced. If it's not breaking the law, and your emotive term "mob" aside, they should be free to express themselves this way. You don't have to like it, and you're free to run a counter-campaign if you want. This discussion has been fun. I know I've enjoyed it. I doubt if it will have any practical effect on the situation, though.

[arjaybe]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Nobody has suggested they should not be free to say it. Of course they are. The question is, would it be ok for them to say it? There's a difference.

For example, am I free to say "You're a fat pig" to a person I don't know, just because that person is overweight? Yes, I'm free to say it. Is it ok to say it? No, it isn't.

It's not socially okay, of course. Thoughtful people don't act that way. Thoughtful people don't behave the way I think the "Twitter mob" must be acting, from the comments here. It's not nice-okay. It's still free expression-okay, though, and that's the okay I'm thinking of.

[fjtorres]

The english language can be very precise.
Definitions of "mob":

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/mob

nounf
1. a disorderly or riotous crowd of people.
2. a crowd bent on or engaged in lawless violence.
3. any group or collection of persons or things.
4. the common people; the masses; populace or multitude.
5. a criminal gang, especially one involved in drug trafficking, extortion, etc.
6. the Mob, Mafia (def 1).
7. Sociology. a group of persons stimulating one another to excitement and losing ordinary rational control over their activity.

adjective
9. of, relating to, or characteristic of a lawless, irrational, disorderly, or riotous crowd:
mob rule; mob instincts.
10. directed at or reflecting the lowest intellectual level of the common people:
mob appeal; the mob mentality.

I'll grant that 5 & 6 don't apply.
But most of the others fit to one extent or another.

And the ones I had in mind are 7 and 10.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by arjaybe

It's not socially okay, of course. Thoughtful people don't act that way. Thoughtful people don't behave the way I think the "Twitter mob" must be acting, from the comments here. It's not nice-okay. It's still free expression-okay, though, and that's the okay I'm thinking of.

It's not even a matter of socially acceptable. Think of okay as being reasonable. Generally people are free to behave unreasonably. People are free to criticise a book without reading it, and no one is suggesting otherwise. The question is whether doing so is reasonable. This thread shows that most think it is not, some unequivocally and some with exceptions.

I myself make an exception for books with real potential to cause real physical harm, for instance "Bomb making for Dummies", which I would even support banning, despite such bans being mostly ineffectual. However, what about similar practical instructions in a work of fiction? In the latter case I don't think it is reasonable to criticise the work without at least reading the offending part. And a ban or censorship? Probably a case by case decision.

But what about crimes not having to do with physical harm. What about laws which are unjust. Consider, for instance, "A Burglar's Guide to House Breaking and Lock Picking?" Or "The Pirate's guide to ignoring Copyright and Not Getting Caught?" Or, travelling back to the bad old days, "A Slave's Guide to Escape?" And the same in fiction? In "The Day of the Jackal" Frederick Forsyth famously went into great detail on the steps a character followed to obtain a false passport. This can be a very slippery slope indeed.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by arjaybe

Why do you say that? Is it because I defend the freedom of expression of people who say things you don't like? It seems to me that I'm in favor of more freedom, not less.

Nothing up with you saying what you want, I thought you said you wanted to stop some books being published or stop people from reading them.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by arjaybe

It's free expression. This is one example where the old term -- free speech -- is inadequate and why it has been replaced. If it's not breaking the law, and your emotive term "mob" aside, they should be free to express themselves this way. You don't have to like it, and you're free to run a counter-campaign if you want. This discussion has been fun. I know I've enjoyed it. I doubt if it will have any practical effect on the situation, though.

Fair enough What's your stance on, say, people physically protesting outside a theatre to get a show shut down. Freedom of Speech or Attempt at Censorship?

The main problem is that the lines can get hazy, my main take on this is that you can do what you want, right up to the point where you try to stop me doing something.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

The main problem is that the lines can get hazy, my main take on this is that you can do what you want, right up to the point where you try to stop me doing something.

This is precisely my view. Your right to "freedom of speech" stops at the point at which your "freedom" removes my right to see or read what I choose to.

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by HarryT

This is precisely my view. Your right to "freedom of speech" stops at the point at which your "freedom" removes my right to see or read what I choose to.

Yes, other people's freedom finishes where mine begins.

[DiapDealer]

The freedom to read, or not read, anything that you want (and the freedom to express your opinion about your experience with a particular piece of work) is paramount.

Trying to convince others to share your opinion of said work--while still a freedom--is actually quite selfish, and not nearly as important/relevant as those who attempt it think it is--regardless of whether they read the work or not.

Wishing people liked/disliked the same books/authors/tropes as you is understandable. Trying to influence people to DO just that is not a very productive or worthy goal, in my opinion.

[hildea]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Real life is real life and fiction is fiction. Fiction does not have to be always nice and politically correct. Well, in my personal opinion, of course.

This is a digression, but I want to point out that politically correct isn't necessarily "nice" - at least if by "nice" you mean pleasant and toothless and uncontroversial. (That might not be what you meant, of course.)

Some really good novels which are "politically correct" but very far from nice:

• The Hate U Give (teenager witnesses a friend being killed by the police)
• Code Name Verity (British agent in a Gestapo prison)
• Every Heart a Doorway (murder mystery at a boarding school for the kids who come back from magic lands)
• In Other Lands (love and friendship and adventure, but also abuse, grief, and child soldiers)
• Who Fears Death (revenge and war and magic and genital mutilation)

Or if we're going for classics: Nothing New on the Western Front, 1984, and The Handmaid's Tale.

[DiapDealer]

Are all those titles really "PC," though? Or has someone just not yet chosen to point out and/or rail against the parts that offend them?

(I can honestly say that I enjoy Nnedi Okorafor's work, though. I'd read her regardless of whether people considered her stuff socially "appropriate" or not.)

[hildea]

Heh, that depends on how we define "PC", of course It's not a phrase I like to use, because it often seems to mean "doubleplusungood in some way that's typical of those who are to the left of me politically". But I'm pretty sure that you'll find people who have railed against at least the three classics I mentioned, and if noone has railed against the newer works, it's probably only because they're not so well known.

I haven't read much Okorafor, just that one and a superhero (or -villain) story in a magazine. "Who Fears Death" was so dark that I had to take a break several times, but still worth it. I've been meaning to read more by her, which one(s) would you recommend?

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by hildea

I haven't read much Okorafor, just that one and a superhero (or -villain) story in a magazine. "Who Fears Death" was so dark that I had to take a break several times, but still worth it. I've been meaning to read more by her, which one(s) would you recommend?

I'm not as much of a fan (yet) of her novels (though I've only read Lagoon so far) as I am of her genre ezine short stories and/or novellas. If you like Science Fiction, I've really enjoyed her Binti novella series (the third installment should be out in January).