Bob Dylan wins Nobel Prize for Literature - Page 12

DiapDealer · 10-23-2016, 10:00 AM

I DID find it a bit humorous how quickly a lot of the internet went from defending the Nobel committee for choosing Dylan, to accusing Dylan of arrogance (or at the very least; indifference) for his lack of response.

If gracious—and timely—acknowledgement of the award is desirable (even if not required), then perhaps feeling out a nominee's receptiveness to the idea of winning beforehand would be advisable?

HarryT · 10-23-2016, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I DID find it a bit humorous how quickly a lot of the internet went from defending the Nobel committee for choosing Dylan, to accusing Dylan of arrogance (or at the very least; indifference) for his lack of response.

It was actually a member of the Swedish Academy who made the comment that it was "impolite and arrogant":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-37740379

jswinden · 10-23-2016, 11:05 AM

In prehistoric times, the era of human existence before the invention of a written language, humans were an oral/aural species as far as communication goes. Before literacy, humans typically remembered important information by wrapping it in poetic lyrics and singing it to a catchy tune. Ever wonder why you can remember the lyrics to songs you haven't heard in 30 years but cannot remember the name of the new guy at work? Words that are presented with a beat and/or rhyme and then sung seem to stick in our minds much better than just hearing, "Blah, blah, blah." It was a great technique for passing along lengthy bits of information in an oral/aural culture. But once literacy comes along, the age of minstrels was superseded by written information. The oldest writing of a newly literate culture tends to be highly poetic. They seem to be writing in the style in which they sang their information. Over time the poetic writing turns more into prose as they realize that prose is better adapted for relaying more complex ideas.

We are now several thousands of years removed from the Tigris and Euphrates River valley where the ancient Sumerians wrote on cuneiform clay tablets. In the western world, we seldom confuse poetry written to be read from lyrics written to be sung. One could argue that song lyrics can be published and thus be read. However, song lyrics were written to be sung and not read. Does publishing a book of song lyrics make them into literature that was meant to be read? I don't think so. I really don't think that song lyrics are in the same classification as poetry that was written to be read. There are some very good song lyrics, no doubt. But I would never consider the music industry's lyrics to be on the same literary level as the libraries of poetry produced by the great poets.

Shakespeare is still quoted often today, centuries after he died. Ask the average Millennial to quote the lyrics to a Dylan song and you will likely here, "Who?" And Dylan is still alive and touring with his band! In my opinion the Swedish Nobel committee got it wrong, as they often do. Dylan is not a great poet, just a drugged out old hippie from the 1960s singing to mostly his generation. We Baby Boomers are getting old. In 30 years we will be little more than a memory and 1960s will be all but forgotten by the grandchildren of the Millennials. I bet they will still be quoting Shakespeare then, but Dylan, well not so much...

DiapDealer · 10-23-2016, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

It was actually a member of the Swedish Academy who made the comment that it was "impolite and arrogant":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-37740379

Even more humorous, then.

BearMountainBooks · 10-23-2016, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I think I'd be quite grateful if someone were to award me a Nobel Prize

. It's just common courtesy, surely, to say "thank you"?

Of course it is common courtesy, but Dylan isn't known for social graces or common. Many talented people are like that. It may not be social or graceful, but that won't change them. :>)

issybird · 10-23-2016, 11:39 AM

I'd have more sympathy for the Academy had they taken the high road. "We're sorry not to have heard from Mr. Dylan, but of course that alters nothing. Rock on!" But since they've descended to name-calling, I think Dylan's in the superior position.

DiapDealer · 10-23-2016, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by issybird

I'd have more sympathy for the Academy had they taken the high road. "We're sorry not to have heard from Mr. Dylan, but of course that alters nothing. Rock on!" But since they've descended to name-calling, I think Dylan's in the superior position.

I agree completely.

tubemonkey · 10-23-2016, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I think I'd be quite grateful if someone were to award me a Nobel Prize

. It's just common courtesy, surely, to say "thank you"?

The Monkey Prize is still up for grabs, and there are no rules against bribing the judge

HarryT · 10-23-2016, 12:20 PM

Would a crate of bananas be favourably considered?

BearMountainBooks · 10-23-2016, 01:15 PM

Chocolate covered bananas???

Krazykiwi · 10-23-2016, 01:16 PM

Actually, Per Wästberg was slightly more subtle than saying he is arrogant, just that one could see it that way.

The Svenska Akademien have distanced themselves, saying it's Wästbergs personal opinion. (Also he's 82, and has a bit of a cranky reputation. I think he probably would have gotten on well with Doris Lessing.)

The exact quotes: "Det var väl inte oväntat. Han verkar väldigt sturig och motvillig så jag blev inte förvånad,"

-- It's not unexpected. He seems very stubborn and uncooperative so I'm not surprised.

"Nä, vad ska man tänka? Man kan ju säga att det är oartigt och arrogant. Han är den han är."

-- Well, what is one supposed to think? One could say that it is impolite and arrogant. He is who he is.

BearMountainBooks · 10-23-2016, 01:30 PM

Thank you for the translations. It's always interesting to see the entire quote.

doubleshuffle · 10-23-2016, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Thank you for the translations. It's always interesting to see the entire quote.

Ditto. Sounds very different.

william z · 10-23-2016, 02:16 PM

[QUOTE=doubleshuffle;3415469]Well, but you're lumping together two entirely different things here - aren't being a poet and having a big fanbase mutually exclusive these days? So the fact that Dylan might perhaps only have sold a few hundred copies of his lyrics if he had published them as poetry cannot be a measure of their quality.

I do agree that in modern times there is a difference between poetry written to be read and song lyrics written to be sung, but, firstly, why shouldn't the latter be considered literature if they are well written and have something original to say? I like the Swedish Academy's argument that originally all literature was made for performance.

However, even if one accepts the argument that "proper" poetry must hold up without any accompanying music (and I do see the merits of this argument: there are - and even Dylan has written - lots of lyrics that are an embarrassment if read out loud), I contend that Dylan has written quite a few lyrics that are great poetry and work very well without the music. I read somewhere that Christopher Hitchens and Salman Rushdie used to play a little game of reciting Dylan lyrics to each other as poetry and being surprised how many of them actually worked. Then there's Christopher Ricks' book, which is terribly boring, unfortunately, but isn't nearly all academic analysis of poetry?

I could go on and on. In the end it's all a matter of taste. Personally, I read quite a bit of poetry, and I have read a lot that certainly qualifies less than something like this:

Relationships of ownership
They whisper in the wings
To those condemned to act accordingly
And wait for succeeding kings.
And I try to harmonize with songs
The lonesome sparrow sings.
There are no kings inside the Gates of Eden.[/QUOTE

But why do you assume Bob Dylan is a great poet? Judging by the comments here it seems many people do, but aren't they Dylan fans who presumably bought and listened to his records because they like his music?
Most of Dylan's fans are in fact products of the "counter culture" that came into being in the USA in the 1960's. I doubt if even Bob Dylan thinks of himself as a poet.

I am no big fan or judge of poetry, I only know what I like. My son (who has a PHD in literature) is a published poet and has written many reviews on modern poetry, laughed out loud when he heard Dylan won the Nobel Prize for Literature.

When I want to read, I pick up a book (or rather e-reader). When I want to listen to music I listen to it. I do both just about every day. They are not the same thing. If the Nobel comittee wants to make a category for popular music, that is their decision. But in my opinion, lyrics of popular songs are NOT literature.

tubemonkey · 10-23-2016, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Would a crate of bananas be favourably considered?

Yes, but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Chocolate covered bananas???

...even better

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10-23-2016, 10:00 AM	#166
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 28,596 Karma: 204624552 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	I DID find it a bit humorous how quickly a lot of the internet went from defending the Nobel committee for choosing Dylan, to accusing Dylan of arrogance (or at the very least; indifference) for his lack of response. If gracious—and timely—acknowledgement of the award is desirable (even if not required), then perhaps feeling out a nominee's receptiveness to the idea of winning beforehand would be advisable?

10-23-2016, 11:05 AM	#168
jswinden Nameless Being	In prehistoric times, the era of human existence before the invention of a written language, humans were an oral/aural species as far as communication goes. Before literacy, humans typically remembered important information by wrapping it in poetic lyrics and singing it to a catchy tune. Ever wonder why you can remember the lyrics to songs you haven't heard in 30 years but cannot remember the name of the new guy at work? Words that are presented with a beat and/or rhyme and then sung seem to stick in our minds much better than just hearing, "Blah, blah, blah." It was a great technique for passing along lengthy bits of information in an oral/aural culture. But once literacy comes along, the age of minstrels was superseded by written information. The oldest writing of a newly literate culture tends to be highly poetic. They seem to be writing in the style in which they sang their information. Over time the poetic writing turns more into prose as they realize that prose is better adapted for relaying more complex ideas. We are now several thousands of years removed from the Tigris and Euphrates River valley where the ancient Sumerians wrote on cuneiform clay tablets. In the western world, we seldom confuse poetry written to be read from lyrics written to be sung. One could argue that song lyrics can be published and thus be read. However, song lyrics were written to be sung and not read. Does publishing a book of song lyrics make them into literature that was meant to be read? I don't think so. I really don't think that song lyrics are in the same classification as poetry that was written to be read. There are some very good song lyrics, no doubt. But I would never consider the music industry's lyrics to be on the same literary level as the libraries of poetry produced by the great poets. Shakespeare is still quoted often today, centuries after he died. Ask the average Millennial to quote the lyrics to a Dylan song and you will likely here, "Who?" And Dylan is still alive and touring with his band! In my opinion the Swedish Nobel committee got it wrong, as they often do. Dylan is not a great poet, just a drugged out old hippie from the 1960s singing to mostly his generation. We Baby Boomers are getting old. In 30 years we will be little more than a memory and 1960s will be all but forgotten by the grandchildren of the Millennials. I bet they will still be quoting Shakespeare then, but Dylan, well not so much...

10-23-2016, 11:39 AM	#171
issybird o saeclum infacetum Posts: 21,314 Karma: 234636059 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: New England Device: Mini, H2O, Glo HD, Aura One, PW4, PW5	I'd have more sympathy for the Academy had they taken the high road. "We're sorry not to have heard from Mr. Dylan, but of course that alters nothing. Rock on!" But since they've descended to name-calling, I think Dylan's in the superior position.

10-23-2016, 12:20 PM	#174
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,548 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Would a crate of bananas be favourably considered?

10-23-2016, 01:15 PM	#175
BearMountainBooks Maria Schneider Posts: 3,746 Karma: 26439330 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Near Austin, Texas Device: 3g Kindle Keyboard	Chocolate covered bananas???

10-23-2016, 01:16 PM	#176
Krazykiwi Zealot Posts: 137 Karma: 2156958 Join Date: Jan 2013 Device: Too many random androids to list	Actually, Per Wästberg was slightly more subtle than saying he is arrogant, just that one could see it that way. The Svenska Akademien have distanced themselves, saying it's Wästbergs personal opinion. (Also he's 82, and has a bit of a cranky reputation. I think he probably would have gotten on well with Doris Lessing.) The exact quotes: "Det var väl inte oväntat. Han verkar väldigt sturig och motvillig så jag blev inte förvånad," -- It's not unexpected. He seems very stubborn and uncooperative so I'm not surprised. "Nä, vad ska man tänka? Man kan ju säga att det är oartigt och arrogant. Han är den han är." -- Well, what is one supposed to think? One could say that it is impolite and arrogant. He is who he is.

10-23-2016, 01:30 PM	#177
BearMountainBooks Maria Schneider Posts: 3,746 Karma: 26439330 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Near Austin, Texas Device: 3g Kindle Keyboard	Thank you for the translations. It's always interesting to see the entire quote.

10-23-2016, 02:16 PM	#179
william z Connoisseur Posts: 56 Karma: 4622408 Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: B.C., Canada Device: Kobo Touch	[QUOTE=doubleshuffle;3415469]Well, but you're lumping together two entirely different things here - aren't being a poet and having a big fanbase mutually exclusive these days? So the fact that Dylan might perhaps only have sold a few hundred copies of his lyrics if he had published them as poetry cannot be a measure of their quality. I do agree that in modern times there is a difference between poetry written to be read and song lyrics written to be sung, but, firstly, why shouldn't the latter be considered literature if they are well written and have something original to say? I like the Swedish Academy's argument that originally all literature was made for performance. However, even if one accepts the argument that "proper" poetry must hold up without any accompanying music (and I do see the merits of this argument: there are - and even Dylan has written - lots of lyrics that are an embarrassment if read out loud), I contend that Dylan has written quite a few lyrics that are great poetry and work very well without the music. I read somewhere that Christopher Hitchens and Salman Rushdie used to play a little game of reciting Dylan lyrics to each other as poetry and being surprised how many of them actually worked. Then there's Christopher Ricks' book, which is terribly boring, unfortunately, but isn't nearly all academic analysis of poetry? I could go on and on. In the end it's all a matter of taste. Personally, I read quite a bit of poetry, and I have read a lot that certainly qualifies less than something like this: Relationships of ownership They whisper in the wings To those condemned to act accordingly And wait for succeeding kings. And I try to harmonize with songs The lonesome sparrow sings. There are no kings inside the Gates of Eden.[/QUOTE But why do you assume Bob Dylan is a great poet? Judging by the comments here it seems many people do, but aren't they Dylan fans who presumably bought and listened to his records because they like his music? Most of Dylan's fans are in fact products of the "counter culture" that came into being in the USA in the 1960's. I doubt if even Bob Dylan thinks of himself as a poet. I am no big fan or judge of poetry, I only know what I like. My son (who has a PHD in literature) is a published poet and has written many reviews on modern poetry, laughed out loud when he heard Dylan won the Nobel Prize for Literature. When I want to read, I pick up a book (or rather e-reader). When I want to listen to music I listen to it. I do both just about every day. They are not the same thing. If the Nobel comittee wants to make a category for popular music, that is their decision. But in my opinion, lyrics of popular songs are NOT literature.

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