Screwed by Tor again...

[pshrynk]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

Heck no, you can't convert LRF to anything. Sony exclusivity is a worse idea than Kindle exclusivity.

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...3&postcount=68

For the record, I said I was screwed by TOR, in THIS thread we're in. In the Goodkind thread, I think it was Goodkind's misstep. I don't feel screwed by Amazon.

Though I've had that dream... with Amazons, you know... the good kind.

And how did Amazon and Goodkind end up in the TOR thread?

And why is there still activity in the TOR thread? We feel screwed, SCREWED I say!! 'Nuff said?

There was a topic here? huh! New concept we're trying out?

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by nekokami

Interesting thread. Doesn't seem that PNH's description of chortling at customers got coverage, though. That really struck me as rude, no matter if he did laugh.

The guy who wrote that later came over here and posted in this thread. It's a few pages back.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

The guy who wrote that later came over here and posted in this thread. It's a few pages back.

I meant that the chortling didn't get coverage at Teleread. I've already read the thread here at MR-- that's how I knew about it.

[carld]

Can someone link to the post where the Tor rep laughed at people asking for eBooks? I missed it somehow.

I want verification before I decide just how much Tor really sucks.

[Nate the great]

Look at comment #176.
http://tor.com/index.php?option=com_...ew=blog&id=577

[Taylor514ce]

I first mentioned Mr. Meadows teleread blog on post 77 of this thread, for those interested.

[Mitchll]

I guess I don't read the blog the same way. Basically says that the free ride is over. Lest we forget: TANSTAAFL

[carld]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

Look at comment #176.
http://tor.com/index.php?option=com_...ew=blog&id=577

Let me see if I can say this politely ...

Nope, epic fail.

What a smug bastard (I inserted lots of other words here before settling on this one). So much for buying anything from Tor, ebook or not, *ever*.

[DrMoze]

Heck, I spent many minutes perusing most (not all!) of this thread, and some of the comments on the Tor site, so might as well weigh in with my 2 cents' worth (or less).

Honestly, I am more in line with Tor on this issue than with the complainers. I mean, look at this thread title even. "Screwed" by Tor? For giving away free samples? I find complaining about that to be silly also.

Reality check: Tor sells books. To advertise, attract more customers, raise awareness about their products, etc., they advertise. Give away free samples even.How? Well, one relatively easy and definitely inexpensive way is to make samples available in electronic form. Which is exactly what they did. And not little teaser excerpts, but entire books! (Even if some are part of a series--consider them 'excerpts on steroids' if you must.)

So what did they do wrong? Nothing. They gave away FREE samples to promote their authors. Never claimed to be doing otherwise. How else should they do this? Print up thousands of paper books and distribute them with zero cover price, hoping some will make it to interested customers? Inefficient, expensive, and just not a viable approach.

So they gave away free electronic samples. Anyone with a computer can read them. No manufacturing costs. Here's the advertising concept: You read a free book, like the author and/or the beginning of a series, and seek out more by buying their other books! If you want to read something, you will go out and borrow or buy it.

What I see here is a lot of self-centerdness by some folks who feel they were 'duped' or 'screwed' by seeking out and accepting something that was free. Assuming they should have the 'right' to get more product in their preferred format, which was NEVER stated or promised, as far as I can tell. That *is* an attitude of entitlement, no way around it (despite many denials I've seen). The samples were in electronic format because it is a great advertising/distribution option for samples. You like the sample, you buy the company's product. Tor's product is paper books. You don't like it, oh well. It didn't cost you anything. No one forced you to download it, much less read it.

I can see why Tor reps think it's silly that a reader who got free samples of entire books feels 'screwed' and 'misled' because of their own assumptions, not based on any statement or announcement by Tor itself. I think it's silly too. Good book or series? I'll look for more of the same. Even in paper format. I'm not going to whine and complain because the 'more' isn't available in my preferred format. Heck, I've been reading paper books my entire life. Have many shelves crammed full of them, even. Just because I have a Reader, I have not lost the ability to buy or borrow paper books, nor turn pages made of wood pulp. If I want to read something, I will read it in whatever form. And if I do like any of these samples, after I get around to reading them, I will seek out and read more.

The other thing I see from this is Tor's awareness that there is a demand for more books in electronic form. As far as I can tell, they are listening and did not at any time say "screw you, we only publish paper books and that's the only way it will ever be." Tor's reaction to people complaining about getting free samples parallels my own above. DL'ing free e-books does not "entitle" you to get more in that same format. Expressing indignation about being 'misled' is silly, IMO.

[slayda]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Slayda .... what would be the point of Amazon selling you a Kindle ebook, if you didn't have a Kindle to read it on?? Wouldn't they be subject to a whole ton of complaints if they did that??

They sell their Mobipocket formated ebooks the same way - only via wispernet. I would like the "Zoe's Tale" which they sell as Mobipocket.

Also the only IMO for them to have come out with their new, proprietary format was to make people buy the Kindle. There were already plenty of perfectly good formats available but this way, and the purchase of Mobipocket, they can offer books cheaper that only Kindle owners can buy or use while forcing the other users of Mobipocket to either do without or buy at a higher price.

Edit: And what Taylor said!

[slayda]

Originally Posted by DrMoze

Heck, I spent many minutes perusing most (not all!) of this thread, and some of the comments on the Tor site, so might as well weigh in with my 2 cents' worth (or less).

Honestly, I am more in line with Tor on this issue than with the complainers. I mean, look at this thread title even. "Screwed" by Tor? For giving away free samples? I find complaining about that to be silly also.

Personally I think the term "suckered" fits better IMHO what Tor did than "screwed". We were suckered into reading new authors in an ebook format, implying that more ebooks would be available for sell (i.e. they used the free ebooks as advertisements but according to Tor.com it was to advertise the Tor,com forum not Tor Publishing ebooks).

So we read them, got hooked by the bait and found out that the bait was all there was. So we were suckered into (apparently) unrealistic expectations. Like Taylor said, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

And according to Torie, they never "intended" to fool anyone. I can see that happening if they got this bright idea and never really thought it through to imagine how someone else might interrupt their advertisement. But once it was pointed out, the polite (and IMO smart) thing to do was to say, "Sorry, we never thought anyone would see it that way. We only wanted to attract attention to Tor.com." But instead they came across angry & rude (again IMHO)

[DrMoze]

Originally Posted by slayda

Personally I think the term "suckered" fits better IMHO what Tor did than "screwed". We were suckered into reading new authors in an ebook format, implying that more ebooks would be available for sell (i.e. they used the free ebooks as advertisements but according to Tor.com it was to advertise the Tor,com forum not Tor Publishing ebooks).

So we read them, got hooked by the bait and found out that the bait was all there was. So we were suckered into (apparently) unrealistic expectations. Like Taylor said, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

The "bait" isn't all there was. There are more follow-up books to the free samples that were made available. On paper. The same way they have been available for centuries now.

Tor never "implied" that more e-books would be available. That was your assumption. They simply offered samples in a low-cost easy-to-distribute medium. ANd I honestly believe some of the posts on the Tor blog (such as the OP in this thread) were a lot more "indignant" than anything Tor reps have said. Unless I'm missing something completely. A few people complained indignantly about free samples they received, and Tor reps said that was a silly attitude. They were entirely civil and open-minded in their responses to people who asked about, and asked them to consider, providing more of their books in e-formats. That is what I read, anyway.

Further, I still don't see Tor saying they won't make more e-books available. In fact, they have stated (not "implied") on the blog that there were some issues being sorted out to achieve just that. Heck, I've even *paid* for some e-books where other books in the series aren't yet available in e-format. And I don't even have any promises from the publisher that they ever will be. Am I "screwed" then? I don't think so.

A few people fooled themselves here. Tor did not "fool" them at all. (I reference the cliche regarding the word 'assume' here...)

[llasram]

Originally Posted by slayda

And according to Torie, they never "intended" to fool anyone. I can see that happening if they got this bright idea and never really thought it through to imagine how someone else might interrupt their advertisement.

And I think a big part of that is that MR is more bleeding-edge than we realize . I know many people here have been reading e-books on PDAs and dedicated LCD devices for years, but I wouldn't have considered the switch to digital books until e-ink display readers appeared on the US market. I read a few PG and CC books on my computer screen, but didn't find it a particularly enjoyable experience. Especially given e.g. the initial format selection, I think Tor has a similar understanding, only sans the (IMHO) major change e-ink has introduced. Despite attempting to move into the e-book space, I don't think they've fully integrated the idea yet that some segment of their readers actually prefer to read books as e-books.

[Taylor514ce]

Originally Posted by DrMoze

A few people complained indignantly about free samples they received...

Dead wrong. False lemmas lead to false conclusions.

I complained indignantly about the e-books I couldn't receive, because they don't exist, not about the free samples I did receive. You are making the same erroneous leap as PNH. So feel free to laugh and ridicule that notion over in that alternate universe where I complained about free samples... meanwhile here in the real universe:

Whether or not a promotion featuring many "book 1 of x" e-books from a book publisher advertising a new site implies that the rest of those series would be available for purchase on that new site, is obviously an issue with two sides.

Feel free to pick your side... it's pretty clear where I stand, but I have no interest in arguing. TOR has stated that they are working on the issue (which implies that yes, the issue does exist), and that's good enough for me.

I'll just take comfort knowing I'm not alone in my expectations regarding the not-about-ebooks ebook promotion for TOR's not-TOR's-website website, and that the actual about-books-TOR TOR is working it out with the about-ebooks-website, Baen.

[starrigger]

Originally Posted by DrMoze

Honestly, I am more in line with Tor on this issue than with the complainers. I mean, look at this thread title even. "Screwed" by Tor? For giving away free samples? ...

So what did they do wrong? Nothing. They gave away FREE samples to promote their authors. Never claimed to be doing otherwise...

The other thing I see from this is Tor's awareness that there is a demand for more books in electronic form. As far as I can tell, they are listening and did not at any time say "screw you, we only publish paper books and that's the only way it will ever be."

What DrMoze said. Yes.

I can understand why people might feel frustrated not getting their next fix of a favorite author immediately--but really, these things take time. It doesn't all happen overnight for the benefit of the e-public. Tor might not even have the e-rights to some of the books people want. (Every book contract is different.)

For those who say that Tor sucks, all I can say is, get real, for heaven's sake. Tor is staffed, from the ground up, by people who love books and who work hard to get as many good books out to people as they can. I can understand why PNH got a little testy in his comment referenced above, because people were complaining because they were given something for free. Maybe he was a little intemperate in his reply to one individual--but even if that's true, he's a human being and he does get testy, but he's not the whole company. He's a senior editor who's taking time from a very busy schedule to answer remarks from readers. He doesn't always answer my emails right away, either, and I'm a Tor author.

Do I ever get annoyed with Tor? Sure, I do. I'm a writer; I get annoyed with my publisher. Goes with the territory.

But give them some credit for what they're trying to do, and please don't dump on them because they don't completely succeed. They're good people, and they're a good publisher.