Supreme Court stops Amazon workers lawsuit

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Well, thank you very much. It is sometimes rare to hear a simple "I agree" as response. You and me both know that we don't agree on everything - otherwise discussions would be meaningless.


Very well said. It is exactly the point I tried to make. Your version sounds more sophisticated.

I try.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

But somehow they still love you.

Brainwashing. I have that down to a science, too. This is because, as is obvious from my posts, I'm an EVIL CAPITALIST. Oh, the humanity!

Hitch

[speakingtohe]

I pretty much agree with everyone except for the smartass putdowns.

I have worked in a lot of places in my life. Quit many a job because I was annoyed by management or just plain bored.

I have worked both union and non union jobs and worked in engineering and as an unskilled labourer. Mostly in companies employing 20 or less people.

My experience has been that employee theft is very common. upwards of $500 a day in small companies. And it is contagious. X sees Y walking out the door with merchandise and thinks why don't they do something about that, and eventually figures out they (the employer) know and chose to do nothing. True in many cases. Makes the innocent person think, why not me. Many will succumb, May will not, but they will, on some level, feel betrayed by the employer who is effectively paying the bad employee a higher wage by ignoring the pilfering.

Some employers feel they need the bad employee, but overall, in my experience, a massive sigh of relief is heard when the employee quits. Like being hit on the head with a hammer...

I would not stay in a job that required a long lineup to get out paid or not. I hate lineups. But then I have always been able to find another job and some are not so lucky.

I really do not agree that it is the employees duty to point out the transgressions of others, whether it be theft or goofing off or just general incompetence. Many people think that ratting someone out is worse than the crime itself. I am not talking mafia ethics here, just the commonly stated to children "Nobody likes a tattletale" and fear of repercussions or loss of friendships. And again in my experience, most of these reports of transgressions are ignored by management as too trifling to deal with. Plus often in smaller companies especially, we know these people and like these people despite what they do. We do not want them to get fired even if we resent or abhor what they are doing.

I don't agree or disagree with Amazons tactics. I think the employees should be paid, but overall I think the most vociferous protesters are those that are guilty. The ones who are innocent are possibly experiencing some satisfaction that others are not getting the undocumented fringe benefits as easily as before.

Helen

[eschwartz]

That "no one likes a tattletale" attitude is a bane to society, and an excellent explanation of what people are "being punished" for.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Hitch

This is because, as is obvious from my posts, I'm an EVIL CAPITALIST. Oh, the humanity!

Hitch

NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

[ApK]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

That "no one likes a tattletale" attitude is a bane to society, and an excellent explanation of what people are "being punished" for.

Actually I think there is an unfortunate and incorrect crossover between tattletaling and whistle-blowing, that was never intended by whoever originally made up those rules.

The admonition against tattletaling is SUPPOSED to be along the lines of not looking to get people into trouble maliciously, keeping your own house in order, not casting stones from your glass house (if I may mix metaphors), not rushing to judgment, etc.
Like the Golden Rule, it's a way to help kids calibrate their moral compasses, until they can process and judge more complex situations.

It was never, I think, intended to lead to professional codes of silence, or to condition people to not stand up against wrongdoing.

And the only connection I think there should be between tattletaling and whistle-blowing, is that hopefully the "no tattletaling" lesson would have taught one to be sure about the facts before blowing a whistle.

There are indeed other forces that would prefer everyone be conditioned to not get involved and leave all that standing-up-again-wrongdoing nonsense to the Government-approved nannies professionals, but that's for another forum.

ApK

[Rizla]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

It is always a balance between pushing your workers to work harder and not pushing them beyond the point where they say "enough is enough, I'm out of here".

One solution from the perspective of the employer is to import cheap workers from other countries who are willing to work for less because they can send the money home where it's worth more. This is good for profits in the short-term but may ultimately have a damaging effect on society.

Add to this that many jobs are being relocated to those same countries or replaced by robots, and you have a situation where employment opurtunites are in decline in the developed world and workers cannot say "I'm out of here" because there is nowhere to go that is better.

This is of course eroding the middle-class and widening the gap between the rich and everybody else.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by ApK

Actually I think there is an unfortunate and incorrect crossover between tattletaling and whistle-blowing, that was never intended by whoever originally made up those rules.

The admonition against tattletaling is SUPPOSED to be along the lines of not looking to get people into trouble maliciously, keeping your own house in order, not casting stones from your glass house (if I may mix metaphors), not rushing to judgment, etc.
Like the Golden Rule, it's a way to help kids calibrate their moral compasses, until they can process and judge more complex situations.

It was never, I think, intended to lead to professional codes of silence, or to condition people to not stand up against wrongdoing.

And the only connection I think there should be between tattletaling and whistle-blowing, is that hopefully the "no tattletaling" lesson would have taught one to be sure about the facts before blowing a whistle.

There are indeed other forces that would prefer everyone be conditioned to not get involved and leave all that standing-up-again-wrongdoing nonsense to the Government-approved nannies professionals, but that's for another forum.

ApK

Thank you.
(That was the more elaborate form of what I meant.)

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Thank you.
(That was the more elaborate form of what I meant.)

Ditto. +1 and then some. The idea that people should not "stand up" against wrongdoing because it is equated with tattle-taling horrifies me.

Hitch

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I really do not agree that it is the employees duty to point out the transgressions of others, whether it be theft or goofing off or just general incompetence.

I'm not sure that I agree with you, Helen. I suspect that almost all of us have been guilty of using company resources for personal benefit - eg taking a company-supplied pen home - but equally I think most of us would be able to make a clear distinction between taking a pen home and, say, stealing a $500 laptop. There's a clear duty to report the latter, to my mind.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm not sure that I agree with you, Helen. I suspect that almost all of us have been guilty of using company resources for personal benefit - eg taking a company-supplied pen home - but equally I think most of us would be able to make a clear distinction between taking a pen home and, say, stealing a $500 laptop. There's a clear duty to report the latter, to my mind.

I agree. Everybody has used a phone, or used the Internet to make an appointment, AND, I know that some of those newsgroups still exist because they send out emails--and so employees aren't busted looking at forums, rather than diligently sitting over their computers "working on email."

But that is a far cry from walking off with a laptop, or a TV. Wasn't it reported that Amazon was actually pretty horrified, when they discovered the sheer extent of the theft? I mean, reliably reported*, in court documents? It wasn't petty pilfering (the occasional office supplies) but fairly massive? Or am I imagining this?


* Warning, short rant about the state of journalism today:

Spoiler:

I just want to further opine that it's a sad, sad day when I need to look at COURT DOCUMENTS to find out actual facts, because "journalism" has been reduced to carrying stories of tattle and titillation, and regurgitating falsehoods fed them by bloggers, "citizen journalists" and interested parties who have no interest in seeing any actual facts emerge. I don't mean solely vis-a-vis Amazon, although that deluge of "bad Amazon" documents/reporting/tittle-tattle has been OBVIOUS to anyone attempting to observe this from an unbiased viewpoint, but ALL journalism, on ALL sides of the political spectrum.

Hitch

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I agree. Everybody has used a phone, or used the Internet to make an appointment, AND, I know that some of those newsgroups still exist because they send out emails--and so employees aren't busted looking at forums, rather than diligently sitting over their computers "working on email."

But that is a far cry from walking off with a laptop, or a TV. Wasn't it reported that Amazon was actually pretty horrified, when they discovered the sheer extent of the theft? I mean, reliably reported*, in court documents? It wasn't petty pilfering (the occasional office supplies) but fairly massive? Or am I imagining this?

Hitch

You are indeed imagining this. It has long since been established that Amazon is run by sadists who enjoy, at their own expense*, seeing their employees standing pointlessly in line for lengthy periods of time.


* -- Hardcore sadism, that.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

You are indeed imagining this. It has long since been established that Amazon is run by sadists who enjoy, at their own expense*, seeing their employees standing pointlessly in in for lengthy periods of time.


* -- Hardcore sadism, that.

<snort,> I nearly blew coffee out my nose! On a BRAND-NEW keyboard, you!

Oh, the humanity!

Hitch

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Hitch

<snort,> I nearly blew coffee out my nose! On a BRAND-NEW keyboard, you!

Oh, the humanity!

Hitch

What's so funny?

Has it not been clearly established in this thread that that is the horrifying truth?

After all, Bezos Eats Babies! so why would this come as a surprise...


(Thank you, I try. )

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

What's so funny?

Has it not been clearly established in this thread that that is the horrifying truth?

After all, Bezos Eats Babies! so why would this come as a surprise...


(Thank you, I try. )

It is the horrifying truth!

Do you think he munches on them raw, or fries 'em up with a little sriracha sauce? I've heard that the Allrecipes' fried baby version isn't very good, but that the Epicurious one--the one with the extra 11 steps--is AWESOME.

Whatcha think?

Hitch