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Old 05-08-2014, 08:44 PM   #166
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Unfortunately I finished 50 shades of grey
Maybe we should start another topic called "books I couldn't start" - that one would make my list!
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:53 PM   #167
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Maybe we should start another topic called "books I couldn't start" - that one would make my list!
Followed closely by "Books I refuse to read"
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Old 05-09-2014, 03:27 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by ApK View Post
Hitch is saying that reading those kinds of classics builds discipline of thought.
Katsunami is saying they require discipline of thought going in.

To me, it sounds like Hitch is from the "no-pain-no-gain lift heavy weight until you are strong" gym, while Kat is of the "play sports you love, ride your bike, go backpacking and eventually you'll be strong enough to lift heavy weights" gym.

I have no data on this, but it's interesting.

For myself: never read the denser classics when I was young, never had that kind of discipline, yet I did well enough on the SATs to join Mensa, and loved Logic and Language in college.

From my single data point, and my life experience I tend to side with Kat in general.
ApK:

Seriously, do we expect that our children will automatically take up the piano (cello, saxophone, insert instrument here) and diligently, sans any type of parental goading, learn to play it well? Not necessarily grand-master level, but well enough to perform Bach, or even Joplin? No, we don't. We assume that along the way, they'll decide they "don't wanna," that studying is too hard, that lessons are boring, and the like. Do we assume that Johnny is just going to be a baseball prodigy, without coaching at some level? That Janie will become a diva at ballet, first dancer, without work? No. Do we think that along the way, parents, teachers, et al, might have to overcome inherent childish disinclination, laziness, and the like? Yes, of course we do. The idea that these same kids will just leap into the classics, be born with the synaptic connections to delve into deeper thought, seems naive to me.

Yes, I was one of those that loved reading from the get-go; I was reading at an adult level before I was 10; and I read the classics on my own. So, inclination-wise, that would make me, personally, of Kat's "school" of thought, so to speak. But did I drag my feet on other areas of learning? Yes. I was an utter cow at math, particularly algebra, because I loathed that year's teacher. Only discipline made me complete it properly. Forcing me to learn that particular topic (and what ensued in the following courses) allowed me to blast through my SAT's. And in later years, when my occupation (real estate development, building 5-star hotels) required that type of usage, not to mention developing complex spreadsheet usages, I was able to do it easily--using the same focus, etc., that I'd developed through both pursuits--the one I came to naturally and the one I hadn't.

So I was both types of student--the backpacker (math) and the no-pain-no-gainer. But nonetheless, kids will goof off if left to their own devices, and reading some of the heavier classics takes a discipline that gets better when used over time, and develops an ability to actually do that type of mental "heavy lifting" that becomes useful in the occupations that need that type of focus and concentration, like legal work, as merely one example.

You, ApK, may well have succeeded without the goad, but I think that assuming that most kids will is not a good idea. The top 1-2% of students will achieve--I did, you did, etc. But the other 98% won't, not without some type of "pain and gain," and we shouldn't allow them to fail just because the world's seemingly turned into some type of "happy happy joy joy" place where all kids get ribbons and medals just for showing up, parents are now their kids' friends and helicopters, rather than their parents, and that reading Dickens or St. Thomas Aquinas in high school is just "too hard." I simply disagree. (Cheerfully, mind you, but I disagree. We'll have to agree that we disagree!)



(Sorry for the hijacking. This thread is now returned to its normal programming.)

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Old 05-09-2014, 03:48 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
ApK:

(Sorry for the hijacking. This thread is now returned to its normal programming.)

Hitch
Meh, discussing WHY we can't finish some of these books seems on topic to me.

As to your point, you gave an anology that is really hitting home at the moment. I'm trying to figure out how to "goad" my son in to putting effort and practice into his clarinet playing.

SOME children may take that forced practice and become prodigies or whatever, but I think it's far more typical that they have all the joy sucked out of the endeavor and rebel against it.

Yet, as you say, they need to SOMEHOW be taught to give effort and do things that are other than easy or pleasant.

The question then, is how best to teach it.

Just as there are musical methods that are more enjoyable and entertaining than just rote scales and finger exorcises, and yet reliably lead to the same success, so too may there be a way to lead kids from the comic books and YA adventure into the heavier stuff other than just locking them in a classroom and forcing them to read Chaucer for hours a day.

ApK

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Old 05-09-2014, 09:48 PM   #170
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Hmmm... I think perhaps the trick is to find out what the child is actually interested in, and give them lessons, support, and encouragement to follow their particular interests. Give them lots of opportunities to try lots of different activities, and something will show up. It may not be what we think is important, but I'll bet they will spend hours practicing and perfecting it, without any pushing from us. Reading is important, but so are lots of other things.
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Old 05-09-2014, 11:13 PM   #171
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Reading is important, but so are lots of other things.
True, but while we may have to accept if our kids don't want to play an instrument or play our favorite sport, reading (and the thinking skills that we're discussing may depend on it) are rather critical in my view, so like brushing their teeth looking both ways when crossing the street, we have to make them learn it whether they want to or not. So I want to find the best way.

NOW I'm getting off topic.
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Old 05-10-2014, 01:43 AM   #172
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Catch 22 -Joseph Heller
A Brief History of time by Stephen Hawking. (It is the best-selling but also supposed to have earned the dubious honour of being the world's most unread book.)
It may sound weird but Harry Potter 1 & 2 is also in my list
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Old 05-10-2014, 08:08 AM   #173
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I certainly agree with Catch-22, but I have read Hawking's book at least twice.

I have issues with the Harry Potter books-- good story, mediocre implementation.
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Old 05-10-2014, 08:56 AM   #174
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@Hitch, @ApK:

I agree that children need to build displince and structured thinking, but IMHO, thrusting a big fat classic on a 14-y/o is not the way to do it. You don't start out on the piano or organ playing Bach.

I'm not against children having to just bull their way through something, just because it has to be done and there is no alternative; think the more difficult math. It just is what it is, and if one needs to learn it, there's no other way to just do it. But, in math, one works upward from simple stuff to the more difficult stuff; at least it was so with me, in school.

Now, here's the cracker; normally you would keep reading kid's books up until 13-14 year old (second year of high school) if reading English, and and then, suddenly, they drop you right in the middle of Chaucer, Shakespeare and Dickens (or the Dutch/French/German equivalents of those languages).

I don't know if you can do that in the UK or other English-speaking countries with any form success, but in the Netherlands, you can't. *MY* English, Dutch, German and general feeling of languages at the age of 13-14 was good enough to read adult non-Dutch books successfully (slowly, with some difficulty and the use of a dictionary), but that certainly isn't the norm. I liken that to playing the organ/piano since 7 year old, but sticking to pieces such as 'Mary Had a Little Lamb' and 'Frère Jacques' for 6-7 years, and then, suddenly, you're required to play Bach, Beethoven, Chopin.... No go.

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Old 05-10-2014, 01:53 PM   #175
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I have issues with the Harry Potter books-- good story, mediocre implementation.
That may have been true for her early books, but she improved as a writer as she wrote more. I remember being pretty impressed with her last book, and I'm picky about that sort of thing.
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Old 05-10-2014, 02:10 PM   #176
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See, I had issues with her later books, notable five and six-- she rushed to publication (in my opinion) and failed to polish the final product.

I get very irritated when I find a grammatical/spelling error within the first ten pages.
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Old 05-14-2014, 06:52 AM   #177
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I get very irritated when I find a grammatical/spelling error within the first ten pages.
Can you give an example?
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Old 05-14-2014, 10:56 AM   #178
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Can you give an example?
If I can find the books... don't know which kid is hiding them at the moment.
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Old 05-14-2014, 11:15 AM   #179
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If I can find the books... don't know which kid is hiding them at the moment.
I'd be interested to know, because I've read these books several times, and spotted no errors, and I'm pretty fussy about these things.
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Old 05-16-2014, 12:13 AM   #180
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What am I, eight-years-old? What in the world in a Harry Potter book would appeal to me? Maybe if a hypnotist age-regressed me, I'd read it. Otherwise, what, are you nuts?
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