TM: An alternative to DRM? Let's discuss.

[Darqref]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

(snip)
We do discuss other methods around here, though. I am presently using a different model entirely (low price, multiple formats, no DRM), to see how well it works... sort of an ongoing experiment in e-book workability. Others are using other models, and you could say we're all experimenting to see what works best. The field is so new, that no one method has proven itself yet, and other methods remain to be discovered or tried.

I (mostly) like where this conversation is leading, so in the interest of avoiding other conflicts, I'll stick to pricing and availability.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Few here would disagree with that assessment. Though volume is easily enough dealt with in electronic files, exposure and usability are tough nuts to crack.

Steve, I've read 2 books from your package, and I'll get to the others sometime. I think you've got a fair price, but the limited output you have makes it difficult to use some of the pricing models popular elsewhere. (Is this the place to say "sit down and write?")

Currency is valuable. All other things being equal, a newer book should be worth more than an older one, if you follow something similar to the music or video media. As the movies get older (as in, longer in popular release, not necessarily older in date if an older movie has not yet been released on dvd), the price tends to drop. (On the other hand, Disney has gotten around this for years by putting a show on for a limited period, then pulling it from the market to be released again later.) Within the limits of copyright, I would think that an author's (or maybe more appropriately, a publisher's) backlist would be priced for less than the newest releases. My favorite example of Baen Books DOESN'T do it this way, but most of "us partisans" think the webscription price is low enough not to worry about further price reductions due to age.

But, for example, I've seen Fictionwise putting all of an author's available backlist on sale to generate a few more transactions while they're popular.

The key factor of availability is actually notice, or maybe publicity. Without being a MobileRead user, I wouldn't know about Steve Jordan books. Your listing on Amazon might help, but if the Amazon Kindle version could be purchased by a non-kindle owner, it would help more. If I were searching for a book to read using the right keywords to target one of Steve Jordan's books, it would help if there were more available targets (than just the original website). In that pursuit, I know that Fictionwise will accept works that have a non-exclusive ebook right, but I don't know what other limitations they might have on what works they will accept. If an acceptable means of generating audiobook formats is available, there are a number of ways of distributing audio format that will generate publicity. ( I recently talked to an author (M.H. Bonham) at an SF con who had gotten a publisher for the first time based on a fairly large number of downloads from Podiobooks.com)

Another way to increase links down the long tail is to make use of recommendation features. If you (or any reader) can make a comparison between your works and another author, then you can draw shoppers down the link trail. For example, my mother listens to lots of mystery audiobooks (she's mostly blind). I don't read a lot of mystery, and I fairly regularly go looking for new authors she hasn't read yet. I pick a current author on Amazon, and check all the links on the page for other suggested authors - the "people who bought this also bought that", and particularly the "listmania". (A listmania list will be displayed on the pages of every book listed, so your books could be seen by people looking at the related books.) So, I recommend generating a couple of lists of authors and books you think are similar to yours in style or subject matter, then posting such to Amazon.

And my last suggestion for the night: Think about making the couple of works you have up for free available on other well known sites. Your individual books have links back to your website, so that could also draw new readers. Maybe the Baen Free Library? Maybe Fictionwise? (hmm, maybe try a reverse logic trick, and put the free books up for 49 cents or such on Fictionwise?)

Dunno exactly how much any of these thoughts would actually drive sales of a lone author's work, but none of them should be affected by the presence or absence of drm.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Darqref

Steve, I've read 2 books from your package, and I'll get to the others sometime. I think you've got a fair price, but the limited output you have makes it difficult to use some of the pricing models popular elsewhere. (Is this the place to say "sit down and write?")

Everybody keeps saying that... Hey, guys, I'm going as fast as I can! Remember, I have a day job too!

You have a lot of other good suggestions to boost recognition, some of which I've considered, some not. As my time permits, I may try any number of these ideas, and others. For the record, I'd much prefer that any of these would work, as opposed to DRM, TM, encryption, or any other similar scheme.

[Ramen]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

As this thread on TM might suggest, DRM is only one thing this site focuses on. It's just that DRM is so loud and clumsy that it continually draws attention to itself in the room (not quite an 800-pound gorilla, but a 300-pound drunken lout, I guess).

We do discuss other methods around here, though. I am presently using a different model entirely (low price, multiple formats, no DRM), to see how well it works... sort of an ongoing experiment in e-book workability. Others are using other models, and you could say we're all experimenting to see what works best. The field is so new, that no one method has proven itself yet, and other methods remain to be discovered or tried.

And while we're all working on that, the lout stumbles over a coffee table and draws everyone's attention back to it, ad infinitum.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

[...]For the record, I'd much prefer that any of these would work, as opposed to DRM, TM, encryption, or any other similar scheme.

Yes, you're right of course and I've read those threads (mostly pre-registering, too). However, the general impression (i.e. not limited to this forum) I got was "I've tried everything else and there are no proper laws in place. DRM-free is my last chance." as opposed to "Let's try DRM-free, might work out". Sort of like "In der Not frisst der Teufel fliegen" ("If in need, the devil eats flies." / "Beggars can't be choosers."*).
There was never really a constructive discussion about the pros and cons but rather only throwing around anecdotal evidence.
I'm not immune to that, obviously, but I tried to make this discussion at least somewhat constructive even if that makes me obnoxious

Originally Posted by Darqref

Another way to increase links down the long tail is to make use of recommendation features. If you (or any reader) can make a comparison between your works and another author, then you can draw shoppers down the link trail. For example, my mother listens to lots of mystery audiobooks (she's mostly blind). I don't read a lot of mystery, and I fairly regularly go looking for new authors she hasn't read yet. I pick a current author on Amazon, and check all the links on the page for other suggested authors - the "people who bought this also bought that", and particularly the "listmania". (A listmania list will be displayed on the pages of every book listed, so your books could be seen by people looking at the related books.) So, I recommend generating a couple of lists of authors and books you think are similar to yours in style or subject matter, then posting such to Amazon.

I had something very similar to this in mind as it's how I find information on other subjects. Only difference is, I wasn't thinking of Amazon but rather a regular website (-ring) but now that you mention it, that'd be a great idea, too.

So, we have a lot of very knowledgeable people here so there should be something to harvest. Perhaps an extension to the mobileread wiki or wikipedia? You could enter a book or saga into the index, describe it and then link to other books you've read that are connected to this one, together with a reason. For instance, you enter "Malazan Book of the Fallen", add some description and then you add a reference to "A Song of Ice and Fire" with the remarks "Fantasy, ruthless, epic, non-obvious, dark (good characters die)". Or perhaps a link to some book, that has nothing in common except for "non-obvious, dark (good characters die)". Something short to give the reader an idea of which part the referenced book relates to. You can then also link to other review sites.
The Idea is, you have some book you liked, you browse to the matching entry and are presented with a number of links to similar books, qualified with remarks. A book-net so to speak. Old idea, I know, but there doesn't seem to be anything like this out there except perhaps for large forum threads on book-specific forums. Not even dedicated book review sites have a link collection.
You could even add a rating for the reference links.

*: source some site I don't recall at the moment :/

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Ramen

There was never really a constructive discussion about the pros and cons but rather only throwing around anecdotal evidence.
I'm not immune to that, obviously, but I tried to make this discussion at least somewhat constructive even if that makes me obnoxious

I know the feeling...

I, too, was hoping for more constructive discussion on the subject (same reason I've participated in many of the others), but admittedly, we are in very new ground here, without much concrete data, so we don't have much more than anecdotal evidence to go by in formulating opinions. Without facts to guide our debates, it's no wonder that these things seem to inevitably break down into food fights.

That's why I've taken Nate's advice and cut back on my participation in these threads--with the exception of this one, obviously, since I did start it, and wanted to see it through until we were down to the final pie-throwing scene. I don't mind being a voice supporting a position, but all these blueberry stains on my shirt have become hard to get out in the wash...

[Ramen]

Coincidence? I think not!

Senator: Let's monitor P2P for illegal files[news.com]
Reason: child porn, rape, etc. (surprise there, huh)


He's also known for the PERFORM[arstechnica.com] Act[eff.org] and for making DRM circumvention a federal crime[zdnet.com]. It's definitely because of "Think of the Children". It's not like child molesters use freenet or somesuch.

ps: thought this would fit here.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Ramen

Coincidence? I think not!

That's no coincidence: As I stated at the beginning of the thread, exactly these activities have been going on in government and law enforcement circles for years, based on numerous articles I've read on the subject, mostly concerned with battling child porn. And we're talking about the same techniques that could (theoretically) be applied to e-books and music files, videos, etc.

Seriously... they've got a looong way to go, but if they crack this, you can depend on it being applied to every type of digital format where the producers have enough influence to force governments and law enforcement to use it.

[Ramen]

Aye, I've been aware of these goings for some time now, too, (Schäuble and Zypries in Germany are awful) and it's exactly what I've been saying as well and which is why I oppose it so thoroughly.

Of course, the blatant lying or just misleading by politicians via Think of the children! or Terrorists! and not to mention Why do you hate Freedom? might have something to do with it.

As I said a few pages back, the EU wide mandatory traffic logging was sold as anti-terror but now the RIAA/MPAA (short form: MAFIAA) want access to it for civil charges. It has already been extended for serious crime.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

I'll be honest: If I thought it was a working, effective tool to catch illegal file swappers, I'd be all for applying it to civil crimes, too. But I know that it's not there yet, so using it for those purposes is only good for trying to convince John and Jane Q. Public that you're doing something to stop the bag guys.

I also know the effort will be very tough, but I don't believe it to be insurmountable. Its success is entirely dependent on how badly the public wants it to work, and therefore supports all government and law enforcement efforts to make it work. So, it's really up to us.

[Ramen]

It's as if we never had this discussion, all summed up in a single post

It's not the public that wants this, it's the digital content producers. The "bad guys" are Jane and John Public themselves when it comes to CRI. The vast majority of the population does not want this, hence the childporn/terror nonesense.

All you have going for your cause is the terror fear actively stirred by the various goverments, the child porn fear actively stirred by the various governments and the large corporations with "donations". The general populance are sheep as can be seen by their collective actions, easily fooled by these distortions.

So you wish to exploit this by hammering through your wants via the above. You know it and you just don't care.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Ramen

So you wish to exploit this by hammering through your wants via the above. You know it and you just don't care.

Ramen, he cares very much about defending his (and others) IP rights. He just cares about that more than defending the right to privacy, the right to unlawful search and seizure, and various other rights. <Shrug> it's a free country....

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Ramen, he cares very much about defending his (and others) IP rights. He just cares about that more than defending the right to privacy, the right to unlawful search and seizure, and various other rights. <Shrug> it's a free country....

You can put it that way, and make me look like as much as a demon as you'd like. But when the fact of the matter is that laws already on the books are already restricting your right to privacy, etc... but since you decide it's worth the trouble to you personally, so no one steals your stuff, you just let those laws pass... that makes you no more righteous than you'd like to say I am demonic.

Guys, I formally apologize for opening this discussion, since it never really became a discussion, but just another place for members to come and argue about their personal ideologies. I'd hoped something might come of it that could someday be a factor in shaping fair and practical systems applied to protecting everyone's right to make a living, and to buy the products one wants. And all I got was numerous kicks in the mouth. Guess I should have known better.

Feel free to continue discussing society's downfall and my soul-less status if you'd like. Just leave yourselves some time to go out and play. Zippin' and gone.