A Question on ethics

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by wgrimm

Maybe, maybe not. Here in the US, if you have bought the content in hardback form, you're allowed to have it in electronic form as well. So, if a person downloads that hardbook in an e-book format, well, that wouldn't appear to be iillegal. Because, he possesses the hardback book, and is allowed to possess the e-format book.

I agree that the "fair use" aspect of the US copyright law could be (rather liberally) interpreted as permitting you to make your own electronic copy of a book that you own, but does it really permit you to download a copy that somebody else has made?

[wgrimm]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I agree that the "fair use" aspect of the US copyright law could be (rather liberally) interpreted as permitting you to make your own electronic copy of a book that you own, but does it really permit you to download a copy that somebody else has made?

Well, if this is a "liberal" interpretation of fair use, then so is ripping your cd's for your ipod. As for downloading an electronic copy being illegal, it might be hard to convict anyone because the end result is the same whether the book is downloaded or created- the person who owns the paper copy also possesses an electronic copy.

[wgrimm]

Originally Posted by guguy

Editors already own electronic version of all their books.
Sure they have some conversion work but it doesn't worth the
+-8$ they ask for an ebook. If I already own a paper version I'm not
willing to pay more than 1$ for the ebook version.

Oh, I agree. As for e-book piracy in general, I don't think it has much effect on sales whatsoever. Because some people buy books and others do not. If you want to view piracy as evil, and think it has a huge impact on publisher's profits, well- look at public libraries. How many sales have public libraries cost book publishers? If a publisher sells a single copy of a book to a library, and that book is checked out by 50 different people during the following year, does this mean that the publisher has lost 50 book sales? Heavens!

If you think so, then forget piracy- go after the libraries. They are the real criminals here, the entities that take the bread from writers mouths and profits from publishers wallets!

Eliminating piracy won't force a cheapskate to buy a book.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by wgrimm

Well, if this is a "liberal" interpretation of fair use, then so is ripping your cd's for your ipod. As for downloading an electronic copy being illegal, it might be hard to convict anyone because the end result is the same whether the book is downloaded or created- the person who owns the paper copy also possesses an electronic copy.

OK, how do you feel about downloading a commercial eBook rather than a "home made" scan?

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by HarryT

OK, how do you feel about downloading a commercial eBook rather than a "home made" scan?

I'm assuming you mean, "downloading a commercial ebook" without paying for it, i.e., a pirated copy, perhaps with DRM removed.

This is a very interesting question. Most of the darknet books I know of have been scanned/ocr'd or typed, rather than decrypted, perhaps because they predate commercial ebooks. One would hope that the commercial versions would be higher quality, with fewer typos, etc., and hence worth paying for, but based on comments about the type quality at the Connect store from Sony customers, this may not be the case.

In the case of audio formats, if one had a vinyl recording and wanted a CD of the same work, it might be reasonable to expect to have to pay for the new format, as the sound quality might be expected to be better (perhaps digitally remastered). But with ebooks, there is less of a clear advantage. Even so, the publisher has invested some effort into converting and formatting an ebook, and as we know from discussions here, that's a non-trivial effort if you want to do a good job.

I guess I'd rather not (knowingly) download a decrypted commercial book from the darknet, even if I owned the paper copy. I'd prefer to get it from someone who volunteered their time to scan the book. (Perhaps there is honor among "thieves" after all.)

[wgrimm]

Originally Posted by HarryT

OK, how do you feel about downloading a commercial eBook rather than a "home made" scan?

Well, let me pose these 2 questions:

1. Am I justified in downloading a "commercial" e-book for free, if I previously owned that e-book in a version for my RocketBook that was broken? Mind you, I paid good money for the original DRMd ebook, and have no recourse with the publisher as they are out of business.

2. If I already own the paper book, is the end result- having an electronic version to read- any different whether I create the version myself or download it from the net?

You might consider this- book publishing is a much smaller market than music or movie publishing. The draconian efforts of music and movie makers to eliminate online piracy has failed miserably; what makes you think DRM or other policies that hurt the consumer will work with books?

Even Apple's online music store has announced they will be dropping DRM because customers don't want it. The ITUNES store has discovered that alot of people will buy a song for $1, a TV show for $2, and movies for $10 or less. When e-book sellers like the Connect store wake up and start pricing realistically, people will start buying from them. DRM ebooks, and watch your customer base dry up.

From the costs associated with the production of a paper book, deduct the following:

costs of printing and packaging. replace with (extremely low) cost of conversion from on electroni format to another.

costs of warehousing, transportation, and storefront (replace with far lower costs of web-based sales.

costs of book returns (from retailer to publisher) for unsold books- shipping, storage, etc.

Perhaps when ebook sellers start adjusting selling prices accordingly, their sales will improve.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by wgrimm

Well, let me pose these 2 questions:

1. Am I justified in downloading a "commercial" e-book for free, if I previously owned that e-book in a version for my RocketBook that was broken? Mind you, I paid good money for the original DRMd ebook, and have no recourse with the publisher as they are out of business.

IMHO, No. That's an equivalent situation to one in which you've bought, say, a paperback version of a book, but are no longer able to read it. Perhaps you lost it, or dropped it in the bath. Are you entitled to a free (or even discounted) replacement? I think most people would say "no".

2. If I already own the paper book, is the end result- having an electronic version to read- any different whether I create the version myself or download it from the net?

Certainly it is. Fair use law, from what I've read, allows you to make a backup of your copy of the book. If you've downloaded it, it's not your copy is it - it's somebody else's. It's like asking if you scratch a CD that you've bought, can you go out and legally copy somebody else's unscratched copy. The answer is clearly, no, you can't.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by wgrimm

1. Am I justified in downloading a "commercial" e-book for free, if I previously owned that e-book in a version for my RocketBook that was broken? Mind you, I paid good money for the original DRMd ebook, and have no recourse with the publisher as they are out of business.

2. If I already own the paper book, is the end result- having an electronic version to read- any different whether I create the version myself or download it from the net?

I would say 1. Yes and 2. No, no difference.

1. is Yes because the case is different from HarryT's example of the paperback dropped in the bathtub in the following way: there is no additional cost to the publisher. (But then, we're allowed to make backup copies of software and music in the US, and things might be different in the UK, where HarryT lives.) This is the only type of circumstance in which I think I'd feel comfortable knowingly downloading a cracked DRM file -- the effort of formatting the book for electronic use has already been paid for.

I'd say 2. is No, because I really do think if you've paid for the book, it doesn't matter particularly where the backup copy comes from. (Again, the idea of a "backup copy" is usually considered "fair use" in the US, but may not be in the UK.) However, uploading a digital copy to where anyone can download it crosses the line into illegality. (I'm less certain about the ethics of the upload. There are two conflicting systems of ethics at work, in my mind: the ethics of the US law-abiding citizen, and the ethics of the internet, often described as a "gift economy" where it's considered fair to download only if you also upload and share content.)

[HarryT]

What I'm struggling with is the idea which seems to be being expressed that, having paid for a book in one format once, you're entitled to free copies, for life, in any other format that you wish .

All my very favourite books - the ones I read and re-read - I've probably bought multiple times; sometimes because I've initially bought a paperback and wanted a nice hardback, sometimes because I've simply worn out the original. I don't consider that buying a book in one format gives me some "God-given right" to "eternal use" of that book in all conceivable formats. If I buy a hardback and want a paperback, I have to buy a paperback (or vice versa). I honestly don't see that an eBook is any different.

Perhaps it is just a cultural difference. For all I know, people in the US routinely photocopy their paper books and read the photocopies, because their "fair use" law says they can. Here, we just accept that books wear and, and go and buy a new one if we want an additional copy, or we want the book in a different format.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by nekokami

I'd say 2. is No, because I really do think if you've paid for the book, it doesn't matter particularly where the backup copy comes from. (Again, the idea of a "backup copy" is usually considered "fair use" in the US, but may not be in the UK.) However, uploading a digital copy to where anyone can download it crosses the line into illegality.

There seems to be a certain contradiction here.

1. It's OK to download a copy of a book from the internet if you have a paper copy.

2. It's wrong and illegal to upload books to the internet.

May I ask where these copies that it's OK for you to download are going to come from, if not from illegal uploads?

[nekokami]

Oh, you're quite right, there's a contradiction there. I can think of ways to resolve it, though, e.g. a swap club that checks the actual library holdings of its members in some way. There's a service like this for the blind: http://www.bookshare.org.

I think you're right, there's a cultural difference here. I've bought additional copies of books in the past if I've lost them or they've gotten damaged, and I don't really mind doing so, but I'd rather be able to keep a backup and retrieve it, and in my mind, that's probably better for the environment as well, which is also important. I'm not saying this to try to get you to agree with me, only explaining my point of view. Perhaps we could agree to disagree on this one.

[slayda]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Perhaps it is just a cultural difference. For all I know, people in the US routinely photocopy their paper books and read the photocopies, because their "fair use" law says they can. Here, we just accept that books wear and, and go and buy a new one if we want an additional copy, or we want the book in a different format.

Harry, I agree with you in concept but it may be only partially a cultural difference. I think the big difference here is a combination of technology & economy. It's basically cheaper to buy a new paperback than to photocopy it. With electronic media, that is not the case since it is much cheaper and easier to copy. Also if I steal a paper copy, I have done several things, only some of which apply to stealing an electronic copy. I.e. 1) there is the "intellectual property" that applies to both, but 2) with the paper copy I have taken something tangible and you no longer have it, while with the ebook, we would both have our own copy - one legal and one stolen. Therefore since you, the legal owner of the book, have lost nothing, some people will not see that as stealing. They don't consider the originator of the story in their thoughts.

Please note that I am NOT saying that it is either legal or ethical to copy the ebook. Just that sometimes it's difficult to determine exactly where the ethical line is on intellectual property. Since we're only talking about books here, I won't open up that whole can of worms except to point out that if I tell a story and you record it and then publish it, you would probably own the copyright even though it originated as my intellectual property.

[slayda]

Another ethical, not legal, question.

Where is the difference between a paper book library lending books and a hypothetical ebook library lending books? With the former, you borrow the book, read it & return it. With my hypothetical ebook library, you download an electronic version, read it & erase it.

I admit that there is no practical way to ensure that you erase the book but most books I buy are of the "read once" variety. So if it were practical to ensure erasure after reading, what would the ethical difference be between the two types of library?

[wgrimm]

Originally Posted by HarryT

IMHO, No. That's an equivalent situation to one in which you've bought, say, a paperback version of a book, but are no longer able to read it. Perhaps you lost it, or dropped it in the bath. Are you entitled to a free (or even discounted) replacement? I think most people would say "no".

Well, I didn't lose my Rocketbook or drop it in the bath, and in fact- I have an identical unit handy. The books' won't run on it because of DRM. Yes, I think I am entitled to a free replacement. If I buy a book, say, from ereader for my palm, and my palm wears out, I can still read the book on another palmpilot.

Originally Posted by HarryT

Certainly it is. Fair use law, from what I've read, allows you to make a backup of your copy of the book. If you've downloaded it, it's not your copy is it - it's somebody else's. It's like asking if you scratch a CD that you've bought, can you go out and legally copy somebody else's unscratched copy. The answer is clearly, no, you can't.

If the 2 copies are identical, then there IS no difference, so who cares?

I think if your approach to e-book marketing is followed, there won't be much of a market for e-books. If publishers want me to pay 2 times for the same content, or won't replace my copies of e-books when their dopey DRM software flakes out and destroys the value of what I bought, well, I won't be buying e-books. I don't think many readers would. But that won't stop me from buying e-book readers and making my own content, and I doubt it will stop book piracy.

I look at ereader, where I have bought thousands of dollars of e-books. Why? Well, convenience mainly- their DRM is easy to deal with (credit card number based) and is easily updated to a different card number, the book is not locked to only 1 device, and they make shopping and retrieval of my purchases extremely easy. They make their customers happy, and the shopping/reading experience enjoyable.

Building a strong business usually isn't possible if you treat your customers poorly........

[wgrimm]

Originally Posted by HarryT

IMHO, No. That's an equivalent situation to one in which you've bought, say, a paperback version of a book, but are no longer able to read it. Perhaps you lost it, or dropped it in the bath. Are you entitled to a free (or even discounted) replacement? I think most people would say "no".

Well, I didn't lose my Rocketbook or drop it in the bath, and in fact- I have an identical unit handy. The books' won't run on it because of DRM. Yes, I think I am entitled to a free replacement. If I buy a book, say, from ereader for my palm, and my palm wears out, I can still read the book on another palmpilot.

Originally Posted by HarryT

Certainly it is. Fair use law, from what I've read, allows you to make a backup of your copy of the book. If you've downloaded it, it's not your copy is it - it's somebody else's. It's like asking if you scratch a CD that you've bought, can you go out and legally copy somebody else's unscratched copy. The answer is clearly, no, you can't.

If the 2 copies are identical, then there IS no difference, so who cares?

I think if your approach to e-book marketing is followed, there won't be much of a market for e-books. If publishers want me to pay 2 times for the same content, or won't replace my copies of e-books when their dopey DRM software flakes out and destroys the value of what I bought, well, I won't be buying e-books. I don't think many readers would. But that won't stop me from buying e-book readers and making my own content, and I doubt it will stop book piracy.

I look at ereader, where I have bought thousands of dollars of e-books. Why? Well, convenience mainly- their DRM is easy to deal with (credit card number based) and is easily updated to a different card number, the book is not locked to only 1 device, and they make shopping and retrieval of my purchases extremely easy. They make their customers happy, and the shopping/reading experience enjoyable. And, in many of their books, the prices are reasonable. And if I lose my copy of an ebook, it's easy to download it again. This is what reading ebooks should be like.

Building a strong business usually isn't possible if you treat your customers poorly........