Rewriting books is doubleplusungood

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by thrawn_aj

Who are you to tell him that? - You are a normal human being who said something that wouldn't be considered offensive by anyone who wasn't stark raving cuckoo . Of course, I wouldn't suggest that you tell him he has no right to be offended - that sort of language (omg, you said "right" - that's sooo offensive) might just start an infinite regression of offense. Reminds me of the woman in "Dead like me" who got offended by the word "moist" .

Don't you find that just a little bit absurd? If a guy gets offended by "dude", he needs to be kept in a padded cell (for his own protection) to avoid any accidental contact with humanity that may damage his oh-so-fragile feelings. I mean, seriously - "dude"? That's offensive now? Or rather, we're expected to humor such insane levels of delicacy now? Gimme a break .

I can go along with the idea that people have the right to feel offended by anything they want. But in a society with more than one person, they have no bloody right to demand or enforce a ban on whatever it is that offends them, unless the offense makes sense (as decided by a reasonably large fraction of that society - the details I leave as an exercise for the reader ).

If I were you, I would greet that guy with a very pointed "Hey, ummmm <long pause> ... you" henceforth. Can't find offense with that eh?

I will admit it was one of the stranger conversations I've had, lol. I chalked it up to him having a red-hot poker in an uncomfortable place

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

I am going to disagree with this.

That's your right and prerogative.

If you call someone something and they don't want to be called that - you are offending.

If they tell you about it and you continue to so, probably (certainly to their face). That would be a conscious act, though, nothing accidental about it. "Offensive" is derived from lat. ob (against) + fendere (to strike); to me it's hard to see how you can strike somebody unless on purpose.

[mldavis2]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Who will never read it. Is that okay with you?

If schools and parents wish to eliminate a work of classic literature, that's a generic, public decision. If I still had adolescent children at home, the original, unbastardized version would be on my home summer reading list for them with a parental introduction as to it's origin, time frame and purpose. I am adamantly opposed to re-writing such works to be politically correct. Substitution of the word "slave" for "nigger" is not appropriate due to lack of inclusion. Not all black persons were slaves, nor were all slaves black. One refers to ethnicity, the other to property. The substitution is inappropriate in addition to the change in context.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

That's your right and prerogative.
If they tell you about it and you continue to so, probably (certainly to their face). That would be a conscious act, though, nothing accidental about it. "Offensive" is derived from lat. ob (against) + fendere (to strike); to me it's hard to see how you can strike somebody unless on purpose.

Thank you. I know what the word "offensive" means and where it is derived from.

We're debating the offensiveness of a racial slur. It's a racial slur and thus by its very nature offensive. A turd wrapped in shiny paper and ribbons is still a turd. Christie named the book "Ten Little Niggers" after a poem in which ten black people are killed off. When the book was published in the US – in 1940 - the title was considered so offensive that it was renamed "Ten Little Indians." If the title was considered so incendiary that it was renamed less than one year after the original publishing, how can you say it was not offensive now?
Can anyone think of any other racial slur that we can say is not offensive? I’m tired of

Originally Posted by mldavis2

If schools and parents wish to eliminate a work of classic literature, that's a generic, public decision. If I still had adolescent children at home, the original, unbastardized version would be on my home summer reading list for them with a parental introduction as to it's origin, time frame and purpose. I am adamantly opposed to re-writing such works to be politically correct. Substitution of the word "slave" for "nigger" is not appropriate due to lack of inclusion. Not all black persons were slaves, nor were all slaves black. One refers to ethnicity, the other to property. The substitution is inappropriate in addition to the change in context.

[NVash]

Im against rewriting this book. I havent read all of these posts but I just wanted to drop in and ask something here. Is anyone aware that the infamous 'n-word' doesnt refer to just African Americans?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Nigger

Take a look at definition number 2, the slang version under '-noun'. I believe thats the way everyone is using it now, especially African Americans. Does that change anything? No, not really. I guess its a hard thing to discuss because everyone seems to okay with throwing it at someone right until someone throws it right at them. And dont let that guy be Caucasian. Its a horrible double standard IMHO.

[boxcorner]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

... are killed off ... it was renamed "Ten Little Indians." ...
Can anyone think of any other racial slur ...

Pardon the partial quotation, but I'm curious - was, "Ten Little Indians" not considered a racial slur by some people?

Originally Posted by NVash

Im against rewriting this book. I havent read all of these posts but I just wanted to drop in and ask something here. Is anyone aware that the infamous 'n-word' doesnt refer to just African Americans?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Nigger

Take a look at definition number 2, the slang version under '-noun'. I believe thats the way everyone is using it now, especially African Americans. Does that change anything? No, not really. I guess its a hard thing to discuss because everyone seems to okay with throwing it at someone right until someone throws it right at them. And dont let that guy be Caucasian. Its a horrible double standard IMHO.

Which do you think is the most reputable, most reliable and based on the greatest amount of research?

1. OED
2. Merriam-Webster
3. reference.com

Do you think that being based on a range of different sources makes reference.com more credible? It's a serious question - I'm interested in dictionaries, and why people use them.

Wasn't the slang use by African Americans covered by the point raised earlier (the last paragraph in Post #131), that nevertheless, when the n-word is used by a Caucasian it causes offense?

When you say, "... I believe thats the way everyone is using it now ...", if you mean literally everyone, then you might as well accept the reference.com World English Dictionary definition which clearly indicates that its use is derogatory, or offensive. Consequently, I don't see how that is a double-standard, as it applies universally.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

We're debating the offensiveness of a racial slur.

The way I see it is we're debating whether a certain word, in a certain context and another time was, in fact, offensive in the first place.

Christie named the book "Ten Little Niggers" after a poem in which ten black people are killed off. When the book was published in the US – in 1940 - the title was considered so offensive that it was renamed "Ten Little Indians."

I think "Ten Tittle Injuns" was in fact the earlier version. I understand it was much more popular in the US than in the UK (for obvious reasons), where "Ten Little Niggers" became the "standard" version.

Be that as it may, I suggest we leave it at that. I will at any rate.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

I think "Ten Tittle Injuns" was in fact the earlier version. I understand it was much more popular in the US than in the UK (for obvious reasons), where "Ten Little Niggers" became the "standard" version.

The original 1939 UK publication title was "Ten Little Niggers". The initial 1940 US publication title was "And Then There Were None", and the book has only ever been published in the US with that title.

The island on which the guests are murdered was "Nigger Island" in the UK and "Indian Island" is the US edition. Subsequently the UK edition was retitled "Ten Little Indians" and the island renamed to "Indian Island". Now, the book is titled "And Then There Were None" in both the UK and US, and the island is called "Soldier Island".

[NVash]

Originally Posted by boxcorner

Pardon the partial quotation, but I'm curious - was, "Ten Little Indians" not considered a racial slur by some people?


Which do you think is the most reputable, most reliable and based on the greatest amount of research?

1. OED
2. Merriam-Webster
3. reference.com

Do you think that being based on a range of different sources makes reference.com more credible? It's a serious question - I'm interested in dictionaries, and why people use them.

Wasn't the slang use by African Americans covered by the point raised earlier (the last paragraph in Post #131), that nevertheless, when the n-word is used by a Caucasian it causes offense?

When you say, "... I believe thats the way everyone is using it now ...", if you mean literally everyone, then you might as well accept the reference.com World English Dictionary definition which clearly indicates that its use is derogatory, or offensive. Consequently, I don't see how that is a double-standard, as it applies universally.

No, I did not read Post #131, I said I havent read all of the posts. Merriam Webster is apparently Dictionary.com, I typed in websters.com and got redirected to Dictionary.com. Havent gone to reference.com.

http://www.reference.com/browse/Nigger
http://www.reference.com/browse/Nigga

I guess you could say using all these references makes it reputable, if you feel like reading. Id rather have a short answer. See Im wondering, have you ever heard a Caucasian called an 'n-word'? I havent. Latino? Nope. Universally offensive? I dont see how. Only when said by a Caucasian to an African American. I dareday a Latino might even get away with calling an African American an 'n-word', but the minute it slips out of a Caucasian persons mouth expect trouble.

Maybe we live in different places. Some people take offense, some couldnt careless. I see most people dropping it like its nothing but they say 'nigga' instead. Truthfully if you ask me thats a nicer way of saying the 'n-word'.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Nigga

And look at that, Dictionary.com agrees with me. An extremely offensive word they say. Thats funny because EVERYONE around here uses it just as they said. 'Yo thats my nigga', 'What up my nigga', 'Nigga owes me money', whichever way you want to say it.

What about real slang usage?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nigger

Look at definition number 4. Used to insult people then as a term of endearment? In the same conversation? That makes no sense at all.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nigga

Well look at that, definition number 1, its just a modern day version of the 'n-word'. Who knew?

I guess my point is I think people need to stop getting so up in arms about it. Its just a word. People need to get over it. I dont care about where it came from. Those were horrible times to be sure but enough about what happened back then. What about now? What is the African American culture doing now to get over that name, to prove that it is just a word? Definitions numbers 2 through 5. Exploiting it. Call a Caucasian a 'cracker' and he might laugh at you. 'Honkey' same thing. Call an African American an 'n-word' and he might beat you to death. I see a problem here. And look at rap. Seriously, take a look at rap music. Mostly African Americans and how many times do they say nigga? Its just ridiculous. They can say it all they want but a Caucasian says it and its racist? None of it makes sense.

Now maybe this was already brought up. But what Im saying is why in the World should this book be taken and redone just because a few people, anyone know what race they are, want to get insulted when most people didnt care to begin with and still dont care now?

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The original 1939 UK publication title was "Ten Little Niggers". The initial 1940 US publication title was "And Then There Were None", and the book has only ever been published in the US with that title.

Sorry for the confusion, I was referring to the (nursery) rhyme from which the book takes its title.

[gastan]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Now, the book is titled "And Then There Were None" in both the UK and US, and the island is called "Soldier Island".

Soldier Island? ??? I'm incensed. I'm affronted. On behalf of all soldiers I take offense that an island where murder and mayhem take place be referred to as "Soldier Island", thereby inferring that all soldiers take part in, condone, and encourage murder, mayhem, and general lawlessness. This is outrageous. Let's start a petition. Let's start a movement. Outraged soldiers unite!

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by NVash

No, I did not read Post #131, I said I havent read all of the posts. Merriam Webster is apparently Dictionary.com, I typed in websters.com and got redirected to Dictionary.com. Havent gone to reference.com.

http://www.reference.com/browse/Nigger
http://www.reference.com/browse/Nigga

I guess you could say using all these references makes it reputable, if you feel like reading. Id rather have a short answer. See Im wondering, have you ever heard a Caucasian called an 'n-word'? I havent. Latino? Nope. Universally offensive? I dont see how. Only when said by a Caucasian to an African American. I dareday a Latino might even get away with calling an African American an 'n-word', but the minute it slips out of a Caucasian persons mouth expect trouble.

Maybe we live in different places. Some people take offense, some couldnt careless. I see most people dropping it like its nothing but they say 'nigga' instead. Truthfully if you ask me thats a nicer way of saying the 'n-word'.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Nigga

And look at that, Dictionary.com agrees with me. An extremely offensive word they say. Thats funny because EVERYONE around here uses it just as they said. 'Yo thats my nigga', 'What up my nigga', 'Nigga owes me money', whichever way you want to say it.

What about real slang usage?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nigger

Look at definition number 4. Used to insult people then as a term of endearment? In the same conversation? That makes no sense at all.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nigga

Well look at that, definition number 1, its just a modern day version of the 'n-word'. Who knew?

I guess my point is I think people need to stop getting so up in arms about it. Its just a word. People need to get over it. I dont care about where it came from. Those were horrible times to be sure but enough about what happened back then. What about now? What is the African American culture doing now to get over that name, to prove that it is just a word? Definitions numbers 2 through 5. Exploiting it. Call a Caucasian a 'cracker' and he might laugh at you. 'Honkey' same thing. Call an African American an 'n-word' and he might beat you to death. I see a problem here. And look at rap. Seriously, take a look at rap music. Mostly African Americans and how many times do they say nigga? Its just ridiculous. They can say it all they want but a Caucasian says it and its racist? None of it makes sense.

Now maybe this was already brought up. But what Im saying is why in the World should this book be taken and redone just because a few people, anyone know what race they are, want to get insulted when most people didnt care to begin with and still dont care now?

I think the problem is that you are looking at a commercial business and trying to push that onto an entire race. Rap songs are for the young things of all races. Please don’t mistake that for the general public. There are millions of people who are terribly offended by the word period, no matter who says it. I am one of those people.

If you meet some young man who curses like a sailor, wears his pants two sizes too small, and likes to call people “nigga,” understand that he is one of the ignorant ones who needs prayer, guidance and an education. I look at those young men and women with pity and sorrow.

[thrawn_aj]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

I think the problem is that you are looking at a commercial business and trying to push that onto an entire race. Rap songs are for the young things of all races. Please don’t mistake that for the general public. There are millions of people who are terribly offended by the word period, no matter who says it. I am one of those people.

If you meet some young man who curses like a sailor, wears his pants two sizes too small, and likes to call people “nigga,” understand that he is one of the ignorant ones who needs prayer, guidance and an education. I look at those young men and women with pity and sorrow.

Bill Cosby would approve .

I do sympathize with NVash though -

Originally Posted by NVash

Im against rewriting this book. I havent read all of these posts but I just wanted to drop in and ask something here. Is anyone aware that the infamous 'n-word' doesnt refer to just African Americans?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Nigger

Take a look at definition number 2, the slang version under '-noun'. I believe thats the way everyone is using it now, especially African Americans. Does that change anything? No, not really. I guess its a hard thing to discuss because everyone seems to okay with throwing it at someone right until someone throws it right at them. And dont let that guy be Caucasian. Its a horrible double standard IMHO.

To confuse things even more, what about someone who is neither white (caucasian is ethnically inaccurate though is is a commonly accepted label) nor black? And no, I don't mean Michael Jackson . Say, someone like me, who is brown (east Indian - dots to be precise ). What about the famous scene in Rush Hour where Jackie Chan uses it as a term of greeting? I sincerely don't know, although I can honestly say that I've never felt the slightest urge to use the word .

[NVash]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

I think the problem is that you are looking at a commercial business and trying to push that onto an entire race. Rap songs are for the young things of all races. Please don’t mistake that for the general public. There are millions of people who are terribly offended by the word period, no matter who says it. I am one of those people.

If you meet some young man who curses like a sailor, wears his pants two sizes too small, and likes to call people “nigga,” understand that he is one of the ignorant ones who needs prayer, guidance and an education. I look at those young men and women with pity and sorrow.

See, Im not one of those people. I dont care. Its just a word. I feel that they may have called my ancestors that and insulted them but no, they wont insult me. Then again, I dont regularly get called that. It seems most times one is called that its because theyre horrible examples of the human race. Kind of like what Chris Rock said once 'I love me some Black people but I hate me some niggers'. He went on to explain how Black people try to set things up, do things right, have some fun and here come the niggers messing everything up. Im sure he meant trashing things, destroying everything and maybe even blaming 'The White Man' or 'Whitey' somewhere in there. Because we all know its easier to place the blame than to actually try to do something with yourself. I know people who take great insult in the word but I am not one of them.

Now these new kids, they make me sick. I can agree with you there though I think you may have meant pants two sizes too big. Id also add, smokes, drinks, does drugs, has who knows how many baby mothers but doesnt take care of any of their children and may even sell drugs on the side. And the worst part is most times theyre always African American. Which brings me to this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg_BankB-j8

Im not very good at embedding Youtube links here, I apologize. Its the speech from 'The Boondocks' episode where Martin Luther King Jr. was revealed to have been in a coma all these years and not dead as everyone thought. He finally recovers from the coma and took a look at the World around him. This is his speech at the end of the episode. Many people may have been insulted by this episode. I liked it and agree with him. And the worst part is I doubt itll ever change.

So who is raising this issue with the book that started this censorship to begin with? Where did this come from? It seemed to come right out of left field, everything is fine then one day someone wants to censor the book. I doubt it was an African American.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by NVash

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nigger
Look at definition number 4. Used to insult people then as a term of endearment? In the same conversation? That makes no sense at all.

A lot of parents call their kids "brats" as a term of endearment. Plenty of married people refer to their spouse as a "ball and chain;" I don't assume they all think of marriage as a prison sentence. Lots of employees refer to their bosses as "slavedrivers" when the boss announces a holiday party or other at-work bonus.

Among friends or other close groups , an insult can be used ironically, or as a sign of kinship or shared experiences, an acknowledgment that they understand the way outsiders might perceive them.

I guess my point is I think people need to stop getting so up in arms about it. Its just a word. People need to get over it. I dont care about where it came from. Those were horrible times to be sure but enough about what happened back then.

If it weren't used today as a hateful insult, that would be true. Nobody wants to edit Shakespeare to remove references to "whoreson," not because of the rarity of children of prostitutes, but because it's not thrown around today on schoolyard playgrounds, and because business owners don't tell their close friends (but only their close friends) that they'll never hire a "whoreson" for a management job.

Call a Caucasian a 'cracker' and he might laugh at you. 'Honkey' same thing. Call an African American an 'n-word' and he might beat you to death. I see a problem here.

The problem is that the white person being insulted has a firm awareness that racial bigotry isn't going to keep him from getting an education, a job, or a mortgage, or justice for crimes committed against him. Saying "white people aren't upset at this; why should black people be upset?" implies that they have equivalent starting circumstances and equal access to resources. They don't.

And look at rap. Seriously, take a look at rap music. Mostly African Americans and how many times do they say nigga? Its just ridiculous. They can say it all they want but a Caucasian says it and its racist? None of it makes sense.

I can call my kids brats all I want. I might call them little demons, if the mood strikes me. *YOU* may not. Workers in a factory may call each other "peons;" that doesn't mean they won't get amazingly hostile if management refers to them that way. Is this really so hard to understand--that what people call themselves is not necessarily welcome from outsiders?

Now maybe this was already brought up. But what Im saying is why in the World should this book be taken and redone just because a few people, anyone know what race they are, want to get insulted when most people didnt care to begin with and still dont care now?

The "most people" who "didn't care" are overwhelmingly white.