How can we convince Amazon to sell ePub format?

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by Kitabi

IMHO, Amazon simply does not need the format restriction crutch to drive business. In fact, if they side with customers on the format and DRM issues, they would further win goodwill. In the face of all this, Amazon's insistence on proprietary is bewildering to many, including me.

I don't see Amazon allowing any ePub on the store anytime soon. The deal with the readers is that the Kindle gets you Amazon books easier, and the Nook gets you B&N books easier. That's their purpose. Amazon doesn't want you to be able to read B&N books easier, and vice versa. If the Nook can suddenly read Amazon books, that's a threat to B&N. If you want books from both stores, you have to get a tablet, because tablets are platform-agnostic.

[waffleman]

There is a really simple answer. Buy the competition which supports Epub. As long as people gobble up the Kindle, I don't see why they should change what they are doing.

[KenJackson]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

The deal with the readers is that the Kindle gets you Amazon books easier, and the Nook gets you B&N books easier. That's their purpose. Amazon doesn't want you to be able to read B&N books easier, and vice versa.

I am actually shocked, seriously, and very frustrated at how frequently people mix up these two very different possible actions as if they are connected in some way. They are not. These are the two actions of which I speak:

• Start also selling in EPUB format (using adept if necessary) --- I advocate
• Enable the Kindle to read encrypted EPUB --- not needed, don't care

Selling EPUBs would hurt, not help, B&N.
As it stands, I can buy from B&N but I can't buy from Amazon (assuming I don't go through the hassle of stripping off their stinking encryption).

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by KenJackson

I am actually shocked, seriously, and very frustrated at how frequently people mix up these two very different possible actions as if they are connected in some way. They are not. These are the two actions of which I speak:

• Start also selling in EPUB format (using adept if necessary) --- I advocate
• Enable the Kindle to read encrypted EPUB --- not needed, don't care

Selling EPUBs would hurt, not help, B&N.
As it stands, I can buy from B&N but I can't buy from Amazon (assuming I don't go through the hassle of stripping off their stinking encryption).

The two issues are more related than you're seeing.

Selling encrypted EPUB that the Kindle can't read makes the Kindle less attractive. Keeping the store exclusively Kindle format makes the Kindle more valuable (and thus makes it easier to sell Amazon's books). If Amazon sells encrypted books that some other reader can read (other than Kindle) taht makes the other device more attractive, and binds the customer more closely to the store that supports that device.

Amazon wants the Kindle to be a kiosk to deliver Amazon books, and the Kindle store to be the interface to that kiosk. Letting other kiosks into the party isn't in their interest.

[KenJackson]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

Selling encrypted EPUB that the Kindle can't read makes the Kindle less attractive. Keeping the store exclusively Kindle format makes the Kindle more valuable (and thus makes it easier to sell Amazon's books).

Surely they would only sell a book in EPUB format if they also sell it in a format Kindle can read.
This would have no effect on the Kindle's value.
It would only result in more ebook sales.

Originally Posted by bhartman36

If Amazon sells encrypted books that some other reader can read (other than Kindle) that makes the other device more attractive, and binds the customer more closely to the store that supports that device.

But what can the other store do that Amazon can't do better?
Wouldn't they just steal the whole show?
I really don't see the downside for Amazon.

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by KenJackson

Surely they would only sell a book in EPUB format if they also sell it in a format Kindle can read.
This would have no effect on the Kindle's value.
It would only result in more ebook sales.

You're right that they'd probably sell both (assuming they could get publishers to agree to release both formats for a given book). The problem is, if I can read a book from Amazon from either a Kindle or a Nook, that means I don't need the Kindle (software or device). That makes me less likely to use the Kindle (or, again, the software). And if I can use a Nook to read a book I bought from the Kindle store, why would I be buying from the Kindle store in the first place? Wouldn't I just buy from the Nook store?

Originally Posted by KenJackson

But what can the other store do that Amazon can't do better?
Wouldn't they just steal the whole show?
I really don't see the downside for Amazon.

The problem is that the stores are sold on the devices. What the B&N store offers you, if you have a Nook, is immediacy. The only way what you're talking about would work is if all stores were available on all devices, and that won't happen, because like I said, the dedicated devices (as opposed to the tablets) are meant as kiosks.

one the great things of internet is the choice you have to buy where ever you want. It's like al those hackers of an iphone. why they hack? they don't wanna be stuck with a single supplier for there apps. you wanna buy what you want and where you want.
therefore I don't care if amazon doesn't sell epub. there are enough other who do. don't make such a big deal out of it. buy somewhere else. if they want that turnover, the will start selling it as well.

[KenJackson]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

The problem is, if I can read a book from Amazon from either a Kindle or a Nook, that means I don't need the Kindle (software or device). That makes me less likely to use the Kindle (or, again, the software).

Why would anyone be less likely to use a Kindle? You seem to imply that there are people who have grudgingly bought a Kindle so they could buy from Amazon when they really, really wanted something else. I guess some of those people exist, but there are plenty of people posting on this very forum that say they love their Kindle and can't imagine being unfaithful.

Originally Posted by bhartman36

The problem is that the stores are sold on the devices. What the B&N store offers you, if you have a Nook, is immediacy. The only way what you're talking about would work is if all stores were available on all devices, and that won't happen, because like I said, the dedicated devices (as opposed to the tablets) are meant as kiosks.

The kiosk model you speak of stinks. I hate it. I want independence. I want the freedom to choose what I want, when I want it, from whoever I choose to buy it.

Naturally, this puts me at odds with the stinking marketeers that want to coral me into only buying their stuff. This includes the hateful grocery stores that artificially raise their prices on popular items and give you a discount if you carry their Club, MVP, or Giant card. And you are right that this is part of Amazon's scheme.

But they are winning that war by selling a capable eReader at a low price, perhaps at a loss, to rope in customers. If they also sell EPUBs, they may lose a few sales to people who opt to buy someone else's kiosk, but I'm sure they would gain a lot more from users of free-market, non-kiosk eReaders like the Sony.

I didn't buy my eReader based on any store it's connected too. I bought it based on the features of the eReader itself. Many others did the same.

[KenJackson]

Originally Posted by Franky

therefore I don't care if amazon doesn't sell epub. there are enough other who do. don't make such a big deal out of it. buy somewhere else. if they want that turnover, the will start selling it as well.

Those are generally wise words, Franky.
But I want to buy from Amazon and it infuriates me that they don't want to sell to me.

[MrsJoseph]

Amazon is doing very, very well with the kindle. I can understand why they don't want to loosen up their golden handcuffs for their customers. It is making them a lot of money right now.

There is a problem embedded in this structure that will show itself eventually: People like choices and they hate restrictions.

I used to work for a membership association - several years ago we had to do company case studies because of a business model similar to Amazon. A sister association had (for years) found a way to gain and keep membership at all times: offering access to and discounts for an industry specific insurance that was only available to its members. The insurance was great and all of the associations' members wanted/needed the insurance. If a member wanted to keep their insurance they had to keep their membership. These "golden handcuffs" were the main driver of the association's membership stability.

For several years this model worked extremely well. Other membership associations tried to emulate them: each looking for its own pair of golden handcuffs.

Then members started getting tired of it. They wanted choices and competition, not restrictions. They wanted to get or keep access to their insurance without being required to be a member of the association. Eventually several members took the association to court and it was decided that associations could no longer restrict such important offerings to members only. This ruling hit our association community like a tidal wave and sent several in our field scrambling.

Unlike the association I mentioned above, Amazon - currently - is in great position. Most people love the site, love the prices, and love the products. So why would they tell me I cannot buy ebooks from them to use on my own purchased device? I do not own a Kindle. I do not want to own a Kindle. I want to buy books from Amazon. I have an Amazon Prime account, I shop there so much. But now my money isn't good enough for them because I haven't bought into their golden handcuffs?

And I don't want to hear any of that "go buy a kindle" crap. I want to use my local library and Kindle doesn't support that.

I guess, eventually, Amazon will start to sell epub or non-DRM'ed books (cause that is the real problem, the DRM). I hope it happens while I still want to do business with Amazon, cause I don’t like begging people to take my money.

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by KenJackson

Why would anyone be less likely to use a Kindle? You seem to imply that there are people who have grudgingly bought a Kindle so they could buy from Amazon when they really, really wanted something else. I guess some of those people exist, but there are plenty of people posting on this very forum that say they love their Kindle and can't imagine being unfaithful.

I don't think everyone would be less likely to use a Kindle, but they'd definitely lose some business. There are things the Kindle just doesn't offer, and doesn't have any immediate plans to offer:

1) Touch screen
2) Color
3) Expansion slot
4) Removable battery

Personally, I had to really think long and hard before upgrading from the Kindle 1, because the K1 has the expansion slot and removable battery, and I wasn't sure if the K3 would offer enough of an improvement. It was the improved screen that sold me on it. But I could see a lot of people opting for another device that offered one or more of those other features. It's the nature of the ereader market that people have these choices now.

So if you give customers the choice to use another e-reader in the Amazon ebook store, and suddenly it's not a Kindle ebook store anymore, and people start to bolt. Meanwhile, Amazon wouldn't gain a lot of customers from those other ereaders they're compatible with now, because they all have their own kiosks that can deliver e-books much more easily than having to go to a website, download a file, and either e-mail it or transfer it via USB or memory card.

Originally Posted by KenJackson

The kiosk model you speak of stinks. I hate it. I want independence. I want the freedom to choose what I want, when I want it, from whoever I choose to buy it.

Naturally, this puts me at odds with the stinking marketeers that want to coral me into only buying their stuff. This includes the hateful grocery stores that artificially raise their prices on popular items and give you a discount if you carry their Club, MVP, or Giant card. And you are right that this is part of Amazon's scheme.

But they are winning that war by selling a capable eReader at a low price, perhaps at a loss, to rope in customers. If they also sell EPUBs, they may lose a few sales to people who opt to buy someone else's kiosk, but I'm sure they would gain a lot more from users of free-market, non-kiosk eReaders like the Sony.

I didn't buy my eReader based on any store it's connected too. I bought it based on the features of the eReader itself. Many others did the same.

A lot of people bought ereaders based on features, and that's part of the quandary that Amazon's in. When people start buying on features, the Kindle doesn't necessarily win, and that opens them up to losing customers in the Kindle store.

Is the Sony actually agnostic? I was under the impression that you had to buy from Sony's own e-book store if you used a Sony Reader (I mean, other than getting ebooks from a public library. Although I suppose you can also download from Google Books...).

[viviena]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

Is the Sony actually agnostic? I was under the impression that you had to buy from Sony's own e-book store if you used a Sony Reader (I mean, other than getting ebooks from a public library. Although I suppose you can also download from Google Books...).

Yes. No, you don't have to buy from the Sony Reader store at all. You can read natively on the Readers any DRM-unrestricted ePUB or any ePUB with Adobe DRM. That would be all bookstores that sell ePUBs except for B&N and Apple's iBooks. Myself, I usually stick to KoboBooks (don't need to own a Kobo to buy from them), Borders AU, occasionally BooksOnBoard and The Book Depository.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

A lot of people bought ereaders based on features, and that's part of the quandary that Amazon's in. When people start buying on features, the Kindle doesn't necessarily win, and that opens them up to losing customers in the Kindle store.

The Kindle has great features for an eInk device. High end display, ample storage, low price, and fantastic battery life. What's missing?

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

The Kindle has great features for an eInk device. High end display, ample storage, low price, and fantastic battery life. What's missing?

Don't get me wrong. I love my K3. But it's missing some features others like the Nook have. (I decided to upgrade from my K1 based mostly on the increased contrast, cost, and smaller size.)

Here are a few areas where other ereaders have an arguable advantage over the Kindle:

1) Touch screen
2) Expansion slot
3) Removable battery

(I excluded color since I figured we'd limit this to eInk devices, and AFAIK, color e-Ink is expensive enough not to be in the same league as the other eInk devices.)

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

Here are a few areas where other ereaders have an arguable advantage over the Kindle:

1) Touch screen
2) Expansion slot
3) Removable battery

Only Sony has a touch screen that I'm aware of. I'd venture to say that most people don't care one way or the other. Personally, I can do without the touch screen.

The Kindle is an ereader, not a media player; so it's 4GB is more than adequate.

The Kindle's battery lasts 3-4 weeks; the longest of the major ereaders. A removable battery isn't needed. It's makes sense in the Nook, because of its extremely poor battery life.