Amazon censorship

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by CleverClothe

In both cases the central government took over industry and agriculture. They took all the resources and production, then rationed what they thought the needs were to the population.

And both systems collapsed. Leading to millions of deaths.

So you don't like Communism. You have not proved (and never will, because you are wrong) that this is to do with greed.

Your personal beliefs may not permit you to like the fact that religion has caused a lot of deaths, but it is a fact. To then try to pin it on something as nebulous as 'greed' and then attempt to back that up with a load of patent nonsense just makes you look stupid.

Anyway, off to bed now. No more time to argue with religious apologists.

[catsittingstill]

@Kali Yuga

Look, I care that Amazon is being unfair. You don't.

You think it's reasonable to expect the author of erotica to be a saint about whether people treat her fairly. I don't.

That about sums it up, right?

And since neither of us finds the other's arguments to the contrary at all convincing, I think this is where we're going to stay.

So good night.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by CleverClothe

Well, yes. One small book store censoring a book is a much smaller issue than a large retailer censoring a book. Which is a smaller issue than the government censoring a book.

Besides, small book sellers are missing so many books due to economic reasons that it seems somewhat silly to focus on censorship issues.

Neither a small bookstore nor a large one is in any way comparable to the government.

A bookstore, large or small, can refuse to sell anything it darn well chooses not to sell, and should not be accused of censorship.

Your choice is to decide to shop elsewhere.

[poohbear_nc]

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[BillSmithBooks]

Originally Posted by CleverClothe

Is this lie still getting repeated?

WWI, WWII and the American Civil War were extremely bloody and had nothing to do with religion.

It seems to me the top causes of violence are something like this:

1) Greed
2) Racism/Xenophobia
3) Religion

WWII: Hitler proudly proclaimed himself a proud Christian and often distorted Christian themes and ideals in his propaganda to unite and rally the German people (and churches) behind his war plans.

The American Civil War: Again, a great many leaders on both sides used religious justifications and "divine providence" to defend (and oppose) slavery, secession, and to prolong the war and the ensuing carnage. The era was a time of strong religious fervor and that got thrown into the recipe for the war.

Let's not even get into George W. Bush's seeing the war he started in the Middle East as part of End Times religious prophesy and destiny.

I am NOT saying that religion causes wars.

Rather, shallow, selfish men often wrap themselves in the flag and wave a Bible or other religious artifact as a means to motivate the masses to participate in their madness...while serving as a convenient way to silence or censor any opposing voices. Religion per se is seldom the cause of war...but it is often grease that enables the gears of war to begin turning. It has happened for hundreds of years...it could happen again if we are not vigilant.

As for the main issue, censorship, I can appreciate Amazon being in an uncomfortable position...but I cannot conceive of how Amazon is justifying removing books from archives when the books are not in any way illegal. I think they are playing with fire for removing the books and not offering full credits and refunds immediately.

Icky to some peoples' tastes, naturally...but that is a matter of taste. I personally find books featuring extremely graphic violence very offensive but I don't suggest that they should be banned because they make me uncomfortable.

I also think that the authors have good reason to be angered, especially since not all books dealing with the subject matter have been banned. It appears to be a case of "some animals being more equal than others," to quote Mr. Orwell.

But let's not forget, Amazon is a publicly traded company...ultimately it answers not to its customers but its shareholders and so it is playing "hot potato" on this or any other controversial subject.

I see a marketing angle: "Amazon might take away your books, but WE don't." A private company could easily position itself as the "true free choice, unlike those evil censors at Amazon."

[CleverClothe]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

So you don't like Communism. You have not proved (and never will, because you are wrong) that this is to do with greed.

Your personal beliefs may not permit you to like the fact that religion has caused a lot of deaths, but it is a fact. To then try to pin it on something as nebulous as 'greed' and then attempt to back that up with a load of patent nonsense just makes you look stupid.

Anyway, off to bed now. No more time to argue with religious apologists.

Are you ever going to read what I write? It seems that you are arguing with someone completely different. I did not say that religion caused no violence.

And if you think that a man talking control over an entire country's resources is not greed; if you think that invading another tribe to kill their men, rape their women and steal their goats is not greed; if you think that launching a war against the other countries of Europe so that you can control the world is not greed; well, I have to wonder what you think greed is.

[doreenjoy]

There is a forum for discussions of religion, and THIS IS NOT IT.

[CleverClothe]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Neither a small bookstore nor a large one is in any way comparable to the government.

A bookstore, large or small, can refuse to sell anything it darn well chooses not to sell, and should not be accused of censorship.

Your choice is to decide to shop elsewhere.

The definition of censorship does not reference government action in anyway. Any person or organization that is in the position to control access to media can be involved in censorship. This can be on the level of a school library, or it can be on the level of a whole nation. The seriousness of this issue varies based on the reach of the effects of the censorship. This is what we are talking about.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by CleverClothe

In both cases the central government took over industry and agriculture. They took all the resources and production, then rationed what they thought the needs were to the population.

And both systems collapsed. Leading to millions of deaths.

The government didn't take over industry and agriculture in Nazi Germany. They remained under private ownership. The US exercised a lot more central control over its economy in WWII than Germany did...and central control over a wartime economy seems be the best way to win the war (if it's a WWII-style total war, anyway).

And the *collapse* of the communist system and the Nazi system didn't result in millions of deaths; the deaths occurred while the systems were operating. (Although, to be fair, 3/4 of the Nazi deaths were caused by the communist system, in a sense).

But none of this has much to do with Amazon's deals with self-published authors.

[elcreative]

You're wrong, their is a big difference between school library/nation and a shop. Censorship at the school library/nation level consists of an attack on our ability to access anything at all. A shop refusing to sell an item gives the potential customer and originator, options to purchase/sell elsewhere... now if every shop in the country/world chooses not to sell an item then you may have a problem... that is NOT the case here. This is an "alleged" removal of an item by Amazon who have every right to do so... it says so in the T&C that the author agrees to when selling a book on Amazon and applies to paper just as much as eBooks but it doesn't stop the author selling from another outlet or their own website... if it isn't on Amazon then use a search engine to find it...

Originally Posted by CleverClothe

The definition of censorship does not reference government action in anyway. Any person or organization that is in the position to control access to media can be involved in censorship. This can be on the level of a school library, or it can be on the level of a whole nation. The seriousness of this issue varies based on the reach of the effects of the censorship. This is what we are talking about.

[BillSmithBooks]

Originally Posted by doreenjoy

There is a forum for discussions of religion, and THIS IS NOT IT.

As for my post, I was merely correcting a factually inaccurate statement.

[NNolan]

I posted early on in this thread asking if anybody could positively say the book was removed from their archive, but I had no replies.

Two regular posters in Amazon's Kindle forum complained about erotica books being missing from their archives when they went to re-download. In fact, one of them reported the problem on the board before Selina did. Do I know either of them personally? No, although I now know more about their taste in reading material than I ever wanted. But then, I don't know any of you personally either. I'll have to take their word for it that the books disappeared, and I have no reason to think either of them is lying.

[bjones6416]

Originally Posted by NNolan

Two regular posters in Amazon's Kindle forum complained about erotica books being missing from their archives when they went to re-download. In fact, one of them reported the problem on the board before Selina did. Do I know either of them personally? No, although I now know more about their taste in reading material than I ever wanted. But then, I don't know any of you personally either. I'll have to take their word for it that the books disappeared, and I have no reason to think either of them is lying.

I was just wondering if any MobileRead members had first-hand experience with this happening. Apparently not, or at least nobody has that is willing to share his/her experience.

[Amalthia]

After someone called those who do read these types of books "godless" I'm not sure if anyone is brave enough to come forward.

Edit: For the record I do not buy ebooks from Amazon because of issues like this. After the 1984 incident I did not have faith that they would not screw up again.

When I buy a book I want to be able to re-download it from the archive.

I also do not like my personal reading choices judged by the people I give money to to purchase a product. If I wanted to be judged I'd go to church. If Amazon is not comfortable with providing adult entertainment fiction in all it's forms maybe they should ban all erotic books and leave it to other publishers to pick up the slack and rake in the money.

[bjones6416]

Originally Posted by Amalthia

After someone called those who do read these types of books "godless" I'm not sure if anyone is brave enough to come forward.

Good point!