You don't matter - and you never did

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

If it were the case that paperback sales didn't matter to publishers, they sure wouldn't be wasting their time and money printing paperbacks to sell.

The "don't matter" buyers you refer to are actually "2nd tier" buyers, and many of them have perfectly good reasons not to buy hardbacks, from cost to space issues. Publishers understand this, being the businesspeople they are, so they make a 2nd tier product, the PB or MMPB, to satisfy 2nd tier buyers; and paperbacks earn the publishers significant profits, because they are generally sold in greater per-unit volume than hardbacks.

[Over]

Originally Posted by leebase

To my fellow forum participants all upset at the cost of ebooks. You seem to be under the impression that you matter. Well, you don't. You never did. You never paid $25 to $30 for a new hard back book. You used the library, borrowed from a friend, bought at garage sales -- or perhaps you bought the paper back when the really cheap mass produced version came out.

So -- continue on. Use the library. Buy from the remainder bin at Costco. Wait until your best friend reads the book she bought and then borrow it. Troll through the neighborhood yard sales and buy books for pennies.

You simply don't matter to the publishers and you never did. You have never supported the art and you never will. That's ok. There should be used books for the rest of your reading lifetime.

What you can't have -- and never could have -- are the first run desirable books at the price you are willing to pay. You didn't value books enough before ebooks to pay that price -- and you don't value them now. As such -- your opinion doesn't matter to publishers who cater to the millions of folks who actually pay the freight. They did before, and they will continue -- because they value the art enough to actually pay the price that the industry is willing to work for.

The rest of you can simply do whatever it is you always did. Heck, go ahead and steal books via whatever excuses you tell yourself is ok. It doesn't matter, because you don't matter. You never did.

Lee

So, if an artist shows you an oil painting, beatiful, colorful, already framed and such and told you "I can sell you this for 1000$". And then takes out from his pocket the same drawing in an A5 paper, made with a pencil, and says "I can sell you this drawing for 1000$", what would you think?

It's the same drawing, just different materials. But what would you answer?

Probably "Here's 1000$ for that sketch, I want to support your art. I do matter!".

[boxcorner]

IMHO some publishers seem to be going about this in entirely the wrong way. Clearly, production and marketing of p-books is different from the production and marketing of e-books. Printing, warehousing and distribution of p-books has little to do with e-books. Of course, there are similarities, such as both require authors, proof-reading, marketing and so on, but otherwise for the most part the production, distribution and the specialised marketing requirements for e-books are quite different. Arguing about the minutiae of p-book publishing seems silly.

Trying to apply old p-book based policies to something that involves entirely different technology also seems silly. Arguing about the relative profits connected with hardback and paperback books seems even more silly, when the core issue is e-books. E-book consumers have different requirements from p-book consumers. So, selling e-books is a different kind of business that requires fresh thinking. Publishers would be better off if they considered it to be entirely different kind of business, instead of trying to tack it onto their existing business model.

The longer p-book publishers resist change, then the more authors will seek to do it themselves, or seek companies that can better fulfil their needs, to aid with production, proof-reading, marketing and distribution. The e-book business appears to be growing; it seems very unlikely to go away any time soon. Publishers that choose to ignore the needs of, or alienate, their e-book customers will surely be less successful than ones that choose to move with the times. I don't believe that publishers can afford to ignore e-book business, nor do I believe that their e-book customers don't matter to them, rather I think that e-book consumers will matter a lot to those publishers who are willing to face up to the challenges ahead. Good luck to them.

[simonroyle]

This has been a long and interesting thread. A good heated debate. So allow me to pour a little fuel on the fire...

I was reading in a forum today about a woman waiting to buy a Kindle online from Amazon. It was a Kindle 2 selling for US$99-00. At the crucial moment she had to go for a pee, guess that excitement peaked at just the wrong moment, because in the three minutes that she was opening the valve to relieve the pressure, all of the Kindles were sold. At ninety-nine dollars a pop.

How many Kindles were there? I don't know, Amazon doesn't usually share that information, and they won't show up on Bookscan either. Now I believe the price of $30-00 or more has been mentioned a few times in relation to hardcovers. So a Kindle equals in price alone three hardcovers.

Now do you care?

[strangeseraph]

I bought Harry Potter books 1-4 in the boxed set the day after I finished reading Philosophers Stone. And I bought the hardcovers of 5-7 every single launch day.

I buy the books at full price that I am anxiously waiting for. Not waiting for anything right now because my interest right now is in older fantasy and science fiction from the 80s and 90s. But I won't have people telling me I don't buy books. Yes I went to the library, yes I went to discount book stores.

But its because I'm on a tight budget, low class budget, not that I'm cheap. I buy the books that matter the most to me. I'm in the process of going through every single Heralds of Valdemar series in chronilogical order and I'm buying them as I'm ready to read them. By the time I've bought the last ebook a new one will be out. And I'll have spent hundreds of dollars.

I'm willing to spend money; but on the books that are important and the authors who I come back to time and time again.

[J. Strnad]

Originally Posted by strangeseraph

I bought Harry Potter books 1-4 in the boxed set the day after I finished reading Philosophers Stone. And I bought the hardcovers of 5-7 every single launch day.

I buy the books at full price that I am anxiously waiting for. Not waiting for anything right now because my interest right now is in older fantasy and science fiction from the 80s and 90s. But I won't have people telling me I don't buy books. Yes I went to the library, yes I went to discount book stores.

But its because I'm on a tight budget, low class budget, not that I'm cheap. I buy the books that matter the most to me. I'm in the process of going through every single Heralds of Valdemar series in chronilogical order and I'm buying them as I'm ready to read them. By the time I've bought the last ebook a new one will be out. And I'll have spent hundreds of dollars.

I'm willing to spend money; but on the books that are important and the authors who I come back to time and time again.

I, on the other hand, have only a minimal interest in Harry Potter and would never pay $25 or $30. I might try another one (I read the first book) if it were $5 or so. I wouldn't expect to get that price on a new release!

Publishers have typically made their money from the new releases in hardcover, then from the mass market paperback release a year or so later, plus the money from library sales.

They have made absolutely no money from used book sales, yard sales, and loans from one friend to another.

They appear to be clinging to that model even though hc and pb sales are declining. However, they are not taking advantage of ebooks to compete with the used book market, which they could do if ebook prices were lower.

If the new release were priced just below the hc, then just below the pb when that was released, and when the book goes into backlist, the ebook price dropped to compete with used books, publishers would be competing in all three areas instead of just two.

[hgwlackey]

Originally Posted by boxcorner

So, selling e-books is a different kind of business that requires fresh thinking. Publishers would be better off if they considered it to be entirely different kind of business, instead of trying to tack it onto their existing business model.

Yes, this.

It's a new business model that will cannibalize hardcover sales, just like publishers fear: some people who used to buy hardcovers will buy ebooks instead, for various reasons. (And some who used to buy hardcovers but now prefer ebooks will at the same time feel that ephemeral ebooks are not worth the same price as hefty, well-designed hardcovers, and therefore won't pay hardcover prices for them. Maybe they'll wait for the price to drop, download it from the public library or forgo the book entirely in disgust over the publishers' attempts to charge more for something than it feels like it's worth. These are the tools, along with griping in public forums and/or directly to the publisher, that we as consumers have at our disposal.)

On the other hand, making up for the decreased hardcover sales and for the market pressure that could force ebook prices down to what the market deems a reasonable price, some people who used to buy used books--people from whom publishers previously derived little to no income--will start buying ebooks, because you can't read a used paperback on your nifty ebook reader without more prep work than the average person is willing to do.

The smart publisher is pricing their backlists to appeal to these people. Look, publishers can't afford to sell print backlist books for just a little above used book prices because every copy of a print book is saddled with printing, transportation, warehousing and display space costs. They could go POD for their backlists to eliminate warehousing and display space costs, but it raises their print costs, so it's more or less a wash. But ebooks don't have these costs, and what costs they may have--scanning & OCR, typesetting, proofreading--are amortized across the total sales of the book: the more copies you sell, the lower the cost/copy. [Aside: I know this is also the case with printing costs, but with printing you have to decide ahead of time on what price break to take--choose too high a quantity and you pay less/copy but risk having to transport and warehouse and/or destroy unsold copies; choose too low and you pay more/copy and risk having to do a future print run, also at a higher cost/copy unless demand--and your second run--turns out to be huge.] So, with an ebook, the more the publisher sells, the less each copy costs them. I'm not arguing for 50-cent books, but the publishers who figure out the sweet spot for backlist books, which is likely somewhere between a used book price and a new backlist paperback price, are the ones who are going to get the business from this potentially rather large NEW MARKET.

And from there it wouldn't be difficult to get a portion of this NEW MARKET to purchase new release ebooks IF they're priced in accordance with the market value of new release EBOOKS and not new release hardcovers.

The publishers who recognize and take advantage of the fact that ebooks are a different business model are the ones positioned to see ebooks overtake hardcovers as their big income generators. The publishers who cling to the old paradigm...will we really miss them when they've gone out of business and our favorite authors are being published by someone else?

(Or--yeah, what Jan Strnd said while I was busy typing up this long-winded post.)

[boxcorner]

Originally Posted by hgwlackey

...The publishers who cling to the old paradigm ...

Paradigm, yes thanks that's the word that I was trying to recall. That's exactly what I was trying to express. History is littered with companies that have failed, been taken over, or otherwise disappeared and they're quickly forgotten. Customers are ruthless and won't hesitate to vote with their feet, if they can find what they want for less, elsewhere. Surely any company that can provide that service will be onto a winner. Right now, I'm most impressed by BeWrite Books' very generous special offer.

[hgwlackey]

Originally Posted by boxcorner

Customers are ruthless and won't hesitate to vote with their feet, if they can find what they want for less, elsewhere.

Especially if they feel like they're being ripped off, which ebook buyers have felt for years with ebooks being offered at hardcover prices (and much more so when those prices ~don't drop accordingly~ as cheaper print editions come out).

The ebook as it stands, all DRM-restricted and essentially made out of thin air, is NOT equal in value to a hardcover, not even when they come out on the same day. So the price needs to be lower OR the publisher needs to emulate Apple's computer business and add value to the ebook version--Apple's computers cost more than most other brands, but they're still in business because their customers feel that they are getting actual value for their money. Simply TELLING people that the ebook has the same value as the hardcover isn't the way to go about increasing the perceived value of the ebook. That's how you make customers feel like you're trying to rip them off. The publisher who can offer something that DOES increase the perceived value of a new release ebook--bonus material, say, or DRM free, or delivered a week before the hardcover release date--will have much better chance of getting people to pay hardcover prices, if that's what they're dead set on getting people to pay.

[corona]

Okay; poor people, who can't afford to buy very many, or any, full-price new books, don't matter. I must have missed the memo on that one. About poor people not mattering.

Library patrons don't matter, since the libraries steall all of their books. Presumably. For this argument to work.

People who visit art galleries to look at, talk about, write about, and presumably popularize, say, paintings, don't matter, or at least not unless they buy original works by recognized artists.

There is no genuine participation in culture except through the market, by individual end-users who pay full price.

Well said, OP!

[JLeighs]

I don't buy hardcover for two reasons. One, I have a hard time paying that much for a book, and two, at the rate I go through books (I average 3-5 per week) I simply couldn't afford it. If that means that "I don't matter", then so be it.

[Xanthe]

Originally Posted by leebase

Ebooks by and large, are cheaper than hard backs by about the amount that credible sources tell us is the cost savings. But it's not good enough that an $18 hard back is sold for $14.99. Just listen to folks who swear vengeance against publishers if an ebook costs more than $9.99.

Those are the folks who never spent $25 for a hard back, who never supported the art. .

Guess again, dear.

I take exception to ebook pricing and I have paid/will pay full price for a hard cover. I will, though, always speak up when I feel that I am being ripped off. Buying hard covers does not and should not make me be viewed as a "better" customer.

The people who pay are the only ones who ever matter. Just like as a photographer it doesn't matter to me if someone thinks $50 is too much for a professional print as such people simply don't value my art enough to pay for it. I spend my time caring about the folks who do care for and are willing to pay for art.

Lee

I'm sure you ask for the greatest amount you think you can get away with - not the actual amount of money the few seconds of your time it took to snap an image or the value of the paper it's printed on, is worth. Do not disguise trying to make a profit with the cloak of "value of art". The price you set for your work is totally arbitrary.

Nothing wrong with trying to make a profit; it is, after all, the American way. But just because people might be unwilling to pay the price you are asking doesn't mean that they don't "value" your art. They might enjoy the work but not believe that the price you are asking for it is justified by the effort that went into producing it. The intangible "love it, gotta have it" is trumped by common sense when the object is priced too high.

That is precisely what is happening regarding ebook pricing.

And if you think that the publishing industry cares more about the regular people who buy hardcovers to the exclusion of all others, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. They care about the sale - not the buyer. A discounted sale is better than no sale at all.

I'm sorry, too, that you only care about "the folks who do care for and are willing to pay for art". That seems to be very short-sighted of you. And I am speaking as a person who has paid more than $50 for a photograph. I was one of those people who used to buy photographs at juried art shows. But for years I was only a person who enjoyed looking at the art. Those photographers who pegged me as a looker and not a buyer, and who couldn't be bothered to pretend to take an interest in me never got my business later on, when I was finally able to buy what I liked.

[pholy]

There is no genuine participation in culture except through the market, by individual end-users who pay full price.

Or maybe spend weeks or months practicing to put on a concert for their friends? Or creating art for a neighbourhood exhibition?

Commercialism is way over-rated as an indicator of value.

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by Seanette

Not all of us who generally don't buy hardback are chronic cheapskates (although for some of us, money is tight enough that if we're going to have any entertainment, we have to find frugal ways to get it, as has been the case for me at various points in my life). For me, paperbacks are easier on touchy wrists and less worrying to read while eating, bathing, etc. They also fit better in my purse.

+1
same for me.
I dislike HCs since the so called "extra" means for me extra veight and extra size.
so where does this put me? Out of the pattern offered I guess

[Worldwalker]

Well, if you're not paying full hardback price, you don't matter. Just ask the OP. And ignore all those paperbacks you see for sale, they don't actually exist.