No E-Books Allowed in This Establishment

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

Why does it have to be omnipotent? I'm a non-smoker with allergies, probably developed because both my parents where chain-smokers. From my POV it is delightful that there is a smoking ban in public establishment. However, smokers are also members of society, they don't do anything illegal, actually they contribute more to society's coffers than non-smokers. So shouldn't it be possible to have some establishments that cater to the needs of the smoking part of the populace? Maybe with strict requirements on ventilation, filtering of the air etc. Also, the need to clearly state that it is a smoking establishment so that non-smokers can decide whether to enter or not.
In my mind smokers has become the minority that it is accepted to discriminate against. And their own docility, kindled (I just had to use that word) by their bad conscience, brought it on.

If you don't stop being reasonable you will force me to agree with you.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

Leaving smoking aside, I believe the original posting was about reading at your table and that an E-book - being a reading device - was treated as a computer. E-books haven't really dissipated into society to the point that they will be immediately recognized as a reading device. I don't know enough about café establishments in the US, but it is, in my experience, very common in Europe to offer free newspapers for your reading enjoyment while you consume you triple shot low-fat latte with chocolate sprinkles. Some cafés are even decorated as reading rooms in a library with lots of books that you are allowed to read while perusing the establishment. If I was told not to read on my Kindle in an establishment like that, I think the utter confusion would simply amke me leave.

We used to have more of those book friendly cafes near where I live. Starbucks ran them out by buying off the landlords & taking over their spaces, which is why I don't patronize Starbucks.

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by Harmon

If you don't stop being reasonable you will force me to agree with you.

　We can't have that, can we?
In a society where Big Brother gets on prime time it would be devastating to have people suddenly agree. Bring out the controversies.

[carld]

Originally Posted by Harmon

Although we are headed that way with Obamacare.

Can we leave the political sniping at home please?

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by Harmon

We used to have more of those book friendly cafes near where I live. Starbucks ran them out by buying off the landlords & taking over their spaces, which is why I don't patronize Starbucks.

So, selling coffee has become a game of playing hardball? No wonder a cup of java goes for $5 these days. From now on, whenever I make a pot of coffee and pour myself a cup, I'll be thinking that I just saved myself $4.85.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Harmon

I don't need the lecture. Both my parent died of smoking based disease - my mother when I was 11. I don't smoke & I think that people who do are fools.

The "it's our money" argument is baloney. Nothing says that the government has to pay those medical bills. You don't get to volunteer to pay for them then control people's behavior on the basis that you are footing the bill. Although we are headed that way with Obamacare.

I have lived long enough to see that we have been letting the government nibble away at our freedom in this country by using the law to address every social problem that annoys us. You would think we'd learned that lesson from Prohibition.

This thread started off with the stupid cafe employee who couldn't grasp that an EBR is not a computer. So...I like to read on my EBR while I eat & this cafe is stopping me. Obviously we need a law to make them leave me alone, right? Or just maybe I should take my business somewhere else & keep the government out of it.

There are always arguments for giving up our freedom to the government. Until one day we wake up & find the government running most of our life.

And oh, yes, my son's problem is indeed his problem, not yours. And your asthma problem is your problem, not his. Neither of you has the right to use the law to make other people deal with your problems.

You STILL don't get it. Someone with a digestive disorder in not going to endanger the health of someone in the same general area. Someone polluting the air with second hand cigarette smoke endangers all around breathing that air that had previously been safe to breathe before smoking polluted it.

In an ideal society, all people would be considerate of others and not infringe on the rights of others and there would be no need for rules and laws. In reality, many people are selfish, others are just inconsiderate, and even more are just clueless of how their actions affect others nearby so rules and laws become necessary. One's rights stop where they infringe on the rights of other's. Again, if you can't deal with that, you have the option of leaving society and becoming a hermit. In the case of the cafe that disallowed the EBR, taking your business elsewhere would be the best option after letting management know that you will be doing so and why.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

You STILL don't get it. Someone with a digestive disorder in not going to endanger the health of someone in the same general area. Someone polluting the air with second hand cigarette smoke endangers all around breathing that air that had previously been safe to breathe before smoking polluted it.

In an ideal society, all people would be considerate of others and not infringe on the rights of others and there would be no need for rules and laws. In reality, many people are selfish, others are just inconsiderate, and even more are just clueless of how their actions affect others nearby so rules and laws become necessary. One's rights stop where they infringe on the rights of other's. Again, if you can't deal with that, you have the option of leaving society and becoming a hermit. In the case of the cafe that disallowed the EBR, taking your business elsewhere would be the best option after letting management know that you will be doing so and why.

Naturally, I think that you are the one who doesn't get it.

You do not have a "right" to eat in a restaurant. The owner can keep you out if he doesn't like your hairdo.

Using laws to deal with what you see as selfishness, inconsideration & cluelessness reduces the moral space in which liberty exists, and subverts the role of custom and society by substituting law for for those flexible and changing informal rules which make freedom possible.

Read your last sentence. Substitute smoking or non-smoking for EBR. That's the way a free country works, and stays free.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Harmon

Naturally, I think that you are the one who doesn't get it.

You do not have a "right" to eat in a restaurant. The owner can keep you out if he doesn't like your hairdo.

Using laws to deal with what you see as selfishness, inconsideration & cluelessness reduces the moral space in which liberty exists, and subverts the role of custom and society by substituting law for for those flexible and changing informal rules which make freedom possible.

Read your last sentence. Substitute smoking or non-smoking for EBR. That's the way a free country works, and stays free.

Again, your logic falls apart because EBRs and hairdo's do not physically harm anyone else but smoking does. Since most restaurants and other businesses would rather permit the smoking than risk losing cutomers, the laws are needed to protect the customers and employees. A customer can choose to eschew a smoking establishment but employees have less choice; jobs are not always that easy to find. Your description of liberty, custom and society suggests anarchy.

[Kali Yuga]

OK, so getting back on point here....

Apparently a handful of coffee joints are altering their architecture to avoid Laptopitis:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/25/di...pagewanted=all

Instead of larger spaces with tables, they are small establishments with stools and bars.

I have to say, my opinion on this topic has slightly altered over the last few weeks. Part of it was that I wound up in a cafe during the day (a rarity for me) and every single person in there, except me, was tapping away on their laptops -- and ignoring each other. I can see how that might get to be a bit much after awhile.

I still don't think banning laptops or technology is a great idea. The "coffee bar" approach seems like a better way to encourage people to unplug for a few minutes.

[HamsterRage]

Originally Posted by brecklundin

the only support I have for the no smoking rule is NOT for the benefit of customers but the employees, even if 99% of food service workers seem to smoke like chimneys.

Ha! I support any no smoking rule on even the flimsiest of excuses. As an ex-smoker I now realize that smoking is one of the disgusting, intrusive and obnoxious habits that anyone can have.

In most places, having a "no smoking" section is about as effective as having a "no peeing" section in a pool.

[HamsterRage]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

...However, smokers are also members of society, they don't do anything illegal, actually they contribute more to society's coffers than non-smokers....

In my mind smokers has become the minority that it is accepted to discriminate against. And their own docility, kindled (I just had to use that word) by their bad conscience, brought it on.

Well, you could probably argue that smokers cost society at least as much as they pay in taxes with the cost of their health care. In Canada at least that's paid by the government, and drives up insurance rates for everyone in other countries.

I always considered myself a "considerate smoker" when I smoked. Looking back, I realize I was just kidding myself. Just standing in line for something nowadays, outside, behind someone smoking makes me realize how inconsiderate I was. Most smokers don't seem to care that, unless they are outside 100 feet away from everyone, or locked in a hermetically sealed room, their second-hand smoke is making someone feel ill.

We've had a ban on smoking inside in the workplace for years here in Ontario. Smokers go outside to smoke (which is rough in winter). Virtually every office building has a sign at the front door telling smokers not to cluster around the doors smoking. Every morning I have to run a gauntlet of smokers leaning on those signs while they puff away. They just don't care.

And they can't figure out why it's open season on them, now the tide has turned.

[There, I'm done. I feel better now]

[EowynCarter]

We've had a ban on smoking inside in the workplace for years here in Ontario. Smokers go outside to smoke (which is rough in winter). Virtually every office building has a sign at the front door telling smokers not to cluster around the doors smoking. Every morning I have to run a gauntlet of smokers leaning on those signs while they puff away. They just don't care.

Yup, same here.
I once remembered opening the door on them a bit brutally, and they look at me like

That's the bad effect, you can hardly find a place outside that is not polluted by smoke. Like people smoking when going to the metro station. You accelerate to pass in front of them not to breathe the smoke anymore.... And too bad, there is yet an other smoker in front of you.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

Yup, same here.
I once remembered opening the door on them a bit brutally, and they look at me like

That's the bad effect, you can hardly find a place outside that is not polluted by smoke.

The people who really suffer from smoking in restaurants, pubs, etc, are the employees. We, as customers, can make the choice not to eat in a restaurant which permits smoking, but the employees do not have that choice. Everybody has a right to a safe workplace environment and a smoky atmosphere is a proven health-risk.

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The people who really suffer from smoking in restaurants, pubs, etc, are the employees. We, as customers, can make the choice not to eat in a restaurant which permits smoking, but the employees do not have that choice. Everybody has a right to a safe workplace environment and a smoky atmosphere is a proven health-risk.

Yup.
I like the non-smoking restaurants.
I also wish i could go to work without having to breathe smoke. Your own house / garden should be the only place you are allowed to smoke.

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by HamsterRage

Well, you could probably argue that smokers cost society at least as much as they pay in taxes with the cost of their health care. In Canada at least that's paid by the government, and drives up insurance rates for everyone in other countries.

I always considered myself a "considerate smoker" when I smoked. Looking back, I realize I was just kidding myself. Just standing in line for something nowadays, outside, behind someone smoking makes me realize how inconsiderate I was. Most smokers don't seem to care that, unless they are outside 100 feet away from everyone, or locked in a hermetically sealed room, their second-hand smoke is making someone feel ill.

We've had a ban on smoking inside in the workplace for years here in Ontario. Smokers go outside to smoke (which is rough in winter). Virtually every office building has a sign at the front door telling smokers not to cluster around the doors smoking. Every morning I have to run a gauntlet of smokers leaning on those signs while they puff away. They just don't care.

And they can't figure out why it's open season on them, now the tide has turned.

[There, I'm done. I feel better now]

I get it! Being a non-smoker (my whole life) I have absolutely no problem with it being banned. Here in Sweden it is the same. You want to smoke, you hang out in the doorway and litter the entrance with butts. I find it appallingly disgusting. But I also realize that for better or worse they are also people, not as productive (considering the amounts of smoking breaks) and here they will pretty much be eliminated within this decade. The latest is talk of a smoking ban in apartments buildings, the ventilation brings second hand smoke into other apartments. So people are beginning to stand outside on their balconies to smoke (you notice it from the amount of butts under balcony equipped apartments).
Despite my antipathy to smokers I think we will have to accept their presence in society unless we outlaw cigarettes and enforce capital punishment on smoking. Now that would be a clear cut message.