Books without swear words - there's an app for that

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by Catlady

While I think the app sounds rather ridiculous, I am appalled by the coarseness of language that has become acceptable these days. Certain words used to have impact because they were shocking; today, not so much. I am sick of all the casual profanity.

Agreed.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by Laridae

Actually, I think this is kind of sad.

Rather than trying to isolate their kids from the realities of the world wouldn't they be better off teaching them what's out there and how to deal with it?

I'm guessing you're not a parent.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

hardcastle -- you seem to be completely missing the point.

The app includes an integrated bookstore, thus lending a veneer of authority to the modifications.
Authors are pissed as hell.
The app no longer includes an integrated bookstore. People are still free to sideload their books to this reader app, and proceed to do whatever damn stupid things they want, because that (stupidity) is a fundamental right.
Most of the people who were upset are more or less happy.

There was a company that tried to do this with movies also. They were also shot down on copyright laws. Personally I think it's kind of silly (since it really doesn't work), but I applaud the parent's attempt to protect their children. At least their heart was/is in the right place.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by rcentros

I don't quite get your point. If the parent chooses this tool to help him with parenting, how does it harm anyone? And isn't this act of choosing this software showing his responsibility?

I use openDNS Family Filtering on our Internet. Does this mean I'm an "absentee landlord?" Or does it mean that I'm using a tool to help keep filth out of my house? The tool doesn't take my place, it just helps me to do my job as a parent.

OpenDNS uses category-based filtering and allows you to manually blacklist/whitelist stuff. It is indeed a tool, a flexible and accurate tool.

This app is none of that. Far better to read reviews, use ratings and tags to filter out inappropriate books.

I note that OpenDNS blocks websites entirely, because they are bad websites. The app allows you to read the book, it simply plays "cipher" with some of the words -- in a very predictable pattern. It does not either change the meaning of the contextual flow.

Not much of a tool, which is why it is absentee-landlord-style parenting.
Responsible parents use tools that work.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by rcentros

There was a company that tried to do this with movies also. They were also shot down on copyright laws. Personally I think it's kind of silly (since it really doesn't work), but I applaud the parent's attempt to protect their children. At least their heart was/is in the right place.

Their heart *might* have been in the right place, but that doesn't give them the right to mess with other peoples' rights. In the post you quoted, I did say I am totally fine with them (aside for agreeing it is silly), now that they no longer distribute changed texts. And yes, I know they *technically* didn't.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I feel sometimes the themes of the books can be more important than these words.

I always feel that way.

The problem is this app only handles these words. It doesn't handle the book that these words are in.

I like that. The child can read a book that challenges their parent's values.

You can describe things that are unsuitable for children in a way that this app won't change a single word.

Hmm.

I think there are very few pure-text eBooks that are unsuitable for children.

A book on how to make explosives would be an exception. Hopefully such are not available as eBooks. If I am wrong, I request this not be disproved in a public forum.

Maybe if I read the Fifty Shades series, I would consider those harmful to children.

Some books I read would bore most children. But I can't think of any that would be positively harmful.

Parents should take an active part in what there kids read.

Maybe this works if the child is weak-willed. I consistently declined to read what my parents suggested, and took out of the library what I wanted.

Parents should pick their battles. So long as a pure-text book is available for free from the library, whether a paper book or an eBook, stopping the child from reading it seems to me a poor battle to pick. And if the parent has the opposite problem (child doesn't like to read), stopping the child from reading one of the few books he or she is willing to read seems to me an equally poor strategy.

Also, a lot of parents can't do a good job of interpreting literature. So if they tried to take an active part, they might easily bollix up the job. Think of some of the overly literal critical readings of Harry Potter. Better they run books through Clean Reader and not overthink what was missed.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

Parents should pick their battles. So long as a pure-text book is available for free from the library, whether a paper book or an eBook, stopping the child from reading it seems to me a poor battle to pick. And if the parent has the opposite problem (child doesn't like to read), stopping the child from reading one of the few books he or she is willing to read seems to me an equally poor strategy.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but as a real parent -- not a hypothetical one -- and as a Christian, I have to be concerned not only about my child's body, but also his soul.

[DiapDealer]

Timeout.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by rcentros

I don't quite get your point. If the parent chooses this tool to help him with parenting, how does it harm anyone? And isn't this act of choosing this software showing his responsibility?

I use openDNS Family Filtering on our Internet. Does this mean I'm an "absentee landlord?" Or does it mean that I'm using a tool to help keep filth out of my house? The tool doesn't take my place, it just helps me to do my job as a parent.

As I said, parents need to take a more active role in what their kids read. It's not words that are an issue, but themes. A lot of books have themes that are not suitable for kids.

[meeera]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

As I said, parents need to take a more active role in what their kids read. It's not words that are an issue, but themes. A lot of books have themes that are not suitable for kids.

My experience - yes, as a real parent, and an aunt, and so forth - has been that children are simply uninterested in books with themes that are truly unsuitable for them. Once those children start to transition into being teenagers (as mine is right now), they can obtain whatever books they like independently from the library, and IMO at that age it's pointless and potentially counterproductive to try to stop them, even if their parents are so motivated.

As a parent of a literate young adult, my role in his reading is to give him plenty of books for Christmas and birthdays, to model reading for pleasure and information, and to make sure he has a library card.

[Rbneader]

Originally Posted by meeera

My experience - yes, as a real parent, and an aunt, and so forth - has been that children are simply uninterested in books with themes that are truly unsuitable for them. Once those children start to transition into being teenagers (as mine is right now), they can obtain whatever books they like independently from the library, and IMO at that age it's pointless and potentially counterproductive to try to stop them, even if their parents are so motivated.

As a parent of a literate young adult, my role in his reading is to give him plenty of books for Christmas and birthdays, to model reading for pleasure and information, and to make sure he has a library card.

There are kids like that. There are also kids who read indiscriminately and pick up wildly inappropriate material. Or who view reading as a challenge to be conquered and deliberately aim for adult books. It really depends on the kid.

I've known kids who picked up Dan Simmons, Marion Zimmer Bradley, the Pern books, etc, in elementary school, and to this day refuse to consider reading anything else by those authors because the experience was so bad. They simply weren't ready for it.

It's the same as video games and other art - different people are simply different, and need to manage their art experiences appropriately.

Parents should be the ones guiding kids down appropriate avenues of exploration until the kids are old enough to make their own decisions, which varies by content type and by the kid involved.

No one in this thread is trying to stop kids from reading. I'm really not sure where you got that. Different people are expressing varying levels of comfort with certain content, and one group is being insulted because of their preferences.

On a side note, it's interesting that the art form dictates how people react to age guidelines. Everyone's OK with R / 16+ ratings, people have tried to ban violent video games for ages, but as soon as people suggest that swearing in books isn't universally approved cries of censorship ring from every corner.

P.S. Anne MacCaffrey is the worst at misleading marketing. She's got books that look so much like they're aimed at the YA market - dragons/unicorn girl/plucky female half-elf on bright covers - but they're really not and it can be confusing and upsetting. David Drake's covers can also be misleading - his War God's series look like straightforward action adventures, but end up having graphic torture/rape scenes. I really wish there was a screening app that could look for content, that would have saved some people a few nasty surprises.

[meeera]

Originally Posted by Rbneader

There are kids like that. There are also kids who read indiscriminately and pick up wildly inappropriate material. Or who view reading as a challenge to be conquered and deliberately aim for adult books. It really depends on the kid.

I've known kids who picked up Dan Simmons, Marion Zimmer Bradley, the Pern books, etc, in elementary school, and to this day refuse to consider reading anything else by those authors because the experience was so bad. They simply weren't ready for it.

...in other words, these books had themes (and/or plots, etc) unsuitable for those individual kids at that time, and the children started reading them and found them to be unsuitable, and were no longer interested? Or were the children irretrievably harmed and their souls put at risk?

I read a whole pile of 'adult' books as a kid. Lots and lots and lots of them. I've not doubt some of the people in this thread would have tried to stop me. I'm very glad that my parents didn't.

And either way, fudgifying certain words would absolutely make no difference to any of this, apart from adding confusion and/or entertainment value, inserting a whole lot of groins into fairytales, and taking Jesus Christ out of the bible and out of religious texts.

Lastly? Where some parents are trying to censor their young adults' reading for bigoted reasons - refusing, to take one very common example, to let them read young adult books with gay storylines - I can and will say loudly and strongly that those parents are making a bad parenting choice. And I make no apologies for that.

[Rbneader]

Originally Posted by meeera

...in other words, these books had themes (and/or plots, etc) unsuitable for those individual kids at that time, and the children started reading them and found them to be unsuitable, and were no longer interested? Or were the children irretrievably harmed and their souls put at risk?

I read a whole pile of 'adult' books as a kid. Lots and lots and lots of them. I've not doubt some of the people in this thread would have tried to stop me. I'm very glad that my parents didn't.

And either way, fudgifying certain words would absolutely make no difference to any of this, apart from adding confusion and/or entertainment value, inserting a whole lot of groins into fairytales, and taking Jesus Christ out of the bible and out of religious texts.

Lastly? Where some parents are trying to censor their young adults' reading for bigoted reasons - refusing, to take one very common example, to let them read young adult books with gay storylines - I can and will say loudly and strongly that those parents are making a bad parenting choice. And I make no apologies for that.

There were nightmares and supremely uncomfortable conversations involved. It doesn't need to be some imaginary 'irretrievable harm' to be uncomfortable and inappropriate for the kid. Unless you're using some very odd definition of 'uninterested' that doesn't fit the situation.

I'll repeat - it depends on the kid. That's why having a broad range of tools is so important, because one kid will be fine with content that will give another kid screaming nightmares. That you were fine is great (although perhaps your parents managed your reading material more than you think - memory is fickle and parents can be very sneaky), but every kid is different, and the tools to identify appropriate content are woefully inadequate to modern information systems. Why are Disney movies so popular? Because parents know they don't need to exhaustively review them before letting their 9 year olds watch the movies.

The parents who disagree with you can and do state their opinion that your choices are bad. That's ok - their kids are not your kids and vice versa. It's perfectly OK for people to make different choices in raising children.

What's NOT ok is the way people are screaming at and denigrating some very mild forms of managing reading material. Shaming parents who need or want a censoring app is entirely unacceptable, just like it would be unacceptable for very conservative parents to try to shame you for your parenting choices.

There are a lot of very angry people trying limit others' choices in this thread and elsewhere wherever this app is brought up, and the culprits are not the social conservatives.

[meeera]

..... (net dropped, double posted)

[meeera]

Originally Posted by Rbneader

Shaming parents who need or want a censoring app is entirely unacceptable, just like it would be unacceptable for very conservative parents to try to shame you for your parenting choices.

FWIW, I don't find the use of this app to be particularly shameful - but I do find it to be hilariously misguided and utterly ineffective. And I am well aware that there are many conservative parents who would definitely attempt to shame me for a whole gamut of my parenting choices, from sex ed to religious discussions to personal freedoms - it's water off a duck's back as far as I'm concerned.