Unusual or unfamilar word or phrase?

[HarryT]

I'm sure it is still used by lawyers, yes - they use a lot of Latin!

What I meant though, is that it used to be one of the Latin words which were in everyday use as a part of normal spoken English. It appears to have fallen out of everyday usage over the last century, whereas many other Latin words and phrases have remained a part of the everyday language.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by HarryT

...What I meant though, is that it used to be one of the Latin words which were in everyday use as a part of normal spoken English. It appears to have fallen out of everyday usage over the last century, whereas many other Latin words and phrases have remained a part of the everyday language.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7705922.stm

"Several councils have banned the use of Latin terminology
A number of local councils in Britain have banned their staff from using Latin words, because they say they might confuse people.
... the move has been welcomed by the Plain English Campaign which says some officials only use Latin to make themselves feel important.
A Campaign spokesman said the ban might stop people confusing the Latin abbreviation e.g. with the word "egg". "

[mtravellerh]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7705922.stm

A Campaign spokesman said the ban might stop people confusing the Latin abbreviation e.g. with the word "egg". "

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7705922.stm

"Several councils have banned the use of Latin terminology
A number of local councils in Britain have banned their staff from using Latin words, because they say they might confuse people.
... the move has been welcomed by the Plain English Campaign which says some officials only use Latin to make themselves feel important.
A Campaign spokesman said the ban might stop people confusing the Latin abbreviation e.g. with the word "egg". "

Yes, I read that article when it first appeared; it's absolutely ridiculous (IMHO) to suggest that use of things like "via", "e.g.", "i.e.", "vice versa", and the like are "elitist". They are just a normal part of everyday English!

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by mtravellerh

Isn't quondam, a bit like quidam, used in legalese? In German you quite often find those two in law-speak but then again german and french lawyers might just be bragging about their latin knowledge.

i didn't know quidam was used in english (at least in legalese english...). it's used in french slang to mean "some guy". not so much now but it was still quite common in the 50s and probably later. Raymond Queneau (among others) uses it all the time in his books. i think of it as a common (if slightly outdated) term of french argot. now i wonder if other people know the word too...

Originally Posted by Sparrow

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7705922.stm

"Several councils have banned the use of Latin terminology
A number of local councils in Britain have banned their staff from using Latin words, because they say they might confuse people.
... the move has been welcomed by the Plain English Campaign which says some officials only use Latin to make themselves feel important.
A Campaign spokesman said the ban might stop people confusing the Latin abbreviation e.g. with the word "egg". "

i find that rather tragic, actually. it's a voluntary impoverishing of the language, which certainly needs no help in that direction (on the contrary).

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

i didn't know quidam was used in english (at least in legalese english...).

I don't think I've ever come across it in English either.

it's used in french slang to mean "some guy". not so much now but it was still quite common in the 50s and probably later.

And that is exactly what it means in Latin, of course; Latin doesn't have either definite or indefinite articles, so they used other words to perform the same functions that articles serve in other languages. "quidam" means "a certain" (eg "quidam homo" = "a certain man") and is used as a substitute for the indefinite article ("a man"). In medieval Latin, they started using the word for the number "one" instead (unus/una/unum) which is where French gets its indefinite article "un/une" from.

[pshrynk]

Originally Posted by HarryT

"quondam" is quite an interesting one. It is, of course, just a straightforward Latin word meaning "formerly" or "at one time", but although it was in everyday use in 19th century novels (Dickens uses it a lot) it seems to be a word that's completely fallen out of current usage - I think you'd struggle to find anyone who knows what it means today.

I don't think it's simply down to the fact that hardly anyone learns Latin in school any more - English still uses a lot of Latin words and expressions, such as "vice versa", despite that fact. "quondam" just seems to have stopped being used, curiously enough.

Heinlein used to use it a lot, which is why I know what it means.

[pshrynk]

Here in the US, hospitals are starting to make us stop using latin abbreviations for orders. They say it's confusing. So, for a while, instead of qd, I wrote quisque diem, for qid, I wrote quater in diem, for qHS, I wrote quisque horum somnolum, for tid, I wrote ter in diem, etc. I was told to stop because it was too confusing.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by pshrynk

Here in the US, hospitals are starting to make us stop using latin abbreviations for orders. They say it's confusing. So, for a while, instead of qd, I wrote quisque diem, for qid, I wrote quater in diem, for qHS, I wrote quisque horum somnolum, for tid, I wrote ter in diem, etc. I was told to stop because it was too confusing.

i'll buy you a drink for that. when will you next be in my neighborhood ?

[zelda_pinwheel]

Periapt
Nitid
Vaticinate
Skirr
Oppugnant (hint : it's similar to pugnacious)

[RWood]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Yes, I read that article when it first appeared; it's absolutely ridiculous (IMHO) to suggest that use of things like "via", "e.g.", "i.e.", "vice versa", and the like are "elitist". They are just a normal part of everyday English!

The theory is that if THEY use it its normal speech, if someone else uses it then its "elitist." THEY are always right, we are always wrong.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by RWood

THEY are always right, we are always wrong.

But, since you're always wrong, that can't be right - can it?

[Dr. Drib]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

But, since you're always wrong, that can't be right - can it?

"What?" he ejaculated. "What did you just say?"


Don

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Yes, I read that article when it first appeared; it's absolutely ridiculous (IMHO) to suggest that use of things like "via", "e.g.", "i.e.", "vice versa", and the like are "elitist". They are just a normal part of everyday English!

Is "fl." used in everyday English? I learned what it means yesterday and it seems to be a useful concept if people will understand it.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by tompe

Is "fl." used in everyday English? I learned what it means yesterday and it seems to be a useful concept if people will understand it.

i had to look it up, i don't know how much it is used... i think i've seen it before but i didn't know what it meant. but you are right, useful concept.