12% of ebooks are self-published; most are rubbish, claims editor

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Why do you think it is that so many indie authors have lousy grammar and spelling? Unless you do have a problem like dyslexia, it's pure laziness not to learn to spell and use grammar correctly. Why are there so many indie authors who can't be bothered to get it right? That's what I can't understand. Surely if you want to be a writer, it's in your own interests to learn how to use the "tools of the trade", and those for an author are the use of language.

What you see with most of what you call indie writers is the raw text straight from their mind with no interference or correction. I do a lot of proof reading, and I'm not exaggerating when I say no writer, whether pro- or self-published that I have read for writes perfect prose. Their spelling and grammar is all over the place because all they care about is the story. Everything else is the copy editor and proof reader's job.

But don't pretend this sloppiness is restricted to "indie" writers who either can't afford or don't think they need a decent copy editor. I've got plenty of lists of mistakes that made it into pro-published books too. Some by very famous names. Like with the self publishers, it's all down to cutting costs.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by teh603

Katsunami- Using "its" exclusively is still a bit of a typing quirk of mine. It comes from me preferring to be wrong less than half the time (since "it's" doesn't show up much outside of dialog), than 100% of the time. Like I said, some of that big hoopla the school made over grammar might've been to induce nervous breakdowns.

As far as I know, the rule is that "it's" is a contraction of "it is", and "its" is a posessive. Therefore:

It is wrong to kill people. -> It's wrong to kill people.
The dog lost its teeth due to old age.

I could be wrong but I think that's all there is to it.

By the way: I don't know if you think so, but my post was not directed at you personally. I just quoted your post because you said your school was insanely strict with regard to grammar, and I am of the opinion that teaching language to the very smallest details only known by professors, is useless. It just wastes time and effort. Those details will be forgotten shortly after taking the tests.

I've forgotten most things I ever learend about biology, language, mathematics, geography and history. I only know the things I still use and/or encounter daily. All of the rest would need to be looked up, should I have to say anything about it some day.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Oh. One of my English teachers always livid if you used "with" as a word to end a sentence with. Is that really something one shouldn't do?

There are some English grammar-fanatics who insist on not ending sentences with prepositions; there's also plenty of support for the other side. That, and the rule against splitting infinitives, are leftovers from trying to force English to follow Latin grammatical rules, on the theory that if something can't be done in Latin it shouldn't be done in other languages.

More realistically: For academic and other formal writing, avoid splitting infinitives and ending sentences with prepositions. It doesn't matter if they're "correct;" they'll be noted as wrong.

For less-formal writing, storytelling, dialogue, and anything from a character's point of view, splitting infinitives and ending with prepositions are both fine.

Just don't dangle your participles.

[hidari]

Well said... Language is an ocean not a canal....

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

There are some English grammar-fanatics who insist on not ending sentences with prepositions; there's also plenty of support for the other side. That, and the rule against splitting infinitives, are leftovers from trying to force English to follow Latin grammatical rules, on the theory that if something can't be done in Latin it shouldn't be done in other languages.

More realistically: For academic and other formal writing, avoid splitting infinitives and ending sentences with prepositions. It doesn't matter if they're "correct;" they'll be noted as wrong.

For less-formal writing, storytelling, dialogue, and anything from a character's point of view, splitting infinitives and ending with prepositions are both fine.

Just don't dangle your participles.

[cfrizz]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

As far as I know, the rule is that "it's" is a contraction of "it is", and "its" is a posessive. Therefore:

It is wrong to kill people. -> It's wrong to kill people.
The dog lost its teeth due to old age.

I could be wrong but I think that's all there is to it.

By the way: I don't know if you think so, but my post was not directed at you personally. I just quoted your post because you said your school was insanely strict with regard to grammar, and I am of the opinion that teaching language to the very smallest details only known by professors, is useless. It just wastes time and effort. Those details will be forgotten shortly after taking the tests.

I've forgotten most things I ever learend about biology, language, mathematics, geography and history. I only know the things I still use and/or encounter daily. All of the rest would need to be looked up, should I have to say anything about it some day.

100% correct. Most of the stuff they shove down your throat in school gets left behind once you get out into the real world. With the exception of all the basics that everyone needs to get along.

Read whatever you like and enjoy, just quit making the overly broad incorrect statements of all indie published books are crap. If you wish to limit yourself to only professionally published books knock yourself out, just don't try to convince the whole rest of the reading world that they should join you.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

More realistically: For academic and other formal writing, avoid splitting infinitives and ending sentences with prepositions. It doesn't matter if they're "correct;" they'll be noted as wrong.

For less-formal writing, storytelling, dialogue, and anything from a character's point of view, splitting infinitives and ending with prepositions are both fine.

Just don't dangle your participles.

Ending sentences with prepositions isn't bad but it does result in a weak sentence. Too many of them and it can bring the whole novel down a peg. It may, at times, be best to rewrite the sentence. For example:

It is behavior I will not put up with. [Change to:] It is behavior I will not tolerate.

That is a situation I have not thought of. [Chang to:] That is a situation I have not considered.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by Fbone

Ending sentences with prepositions isn't bad but it does result in a weak sentence. Too many of them and it can bring the whole novel down a peg. It may, at times, be best to rewrite the sentence. For example:

It is behavior I will not put up with. [Change to:] It is behavior I will not tolerate.

That is a situation I have not thought of. [Chang to:] That is a situation I have not considered.

Better:

I will not tolerate that behavior.

I have not considered that situation.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Fbone

Ending sentences with prepositions isn't bad but it does result in a weak sentence. Too many of them and it can bring the whole novel down a peg. It may, at times, be best to rewrite the sentence. For example:

It is behavior I will not put up with. [Change to:] It is behavior I will not tolerate.

That is a situation I have not thought of. [Chang to:] That is a situation I have not considered.

Not that I'm in the habit of ending with prepositions, but this is the type of thing my "word editor" points out. She highlights weak sentences and/or makes suggestions like "considered" rather than "thought" and "tolerate" rather than "put up with." Excellent.

[teh603]

Originally Posted by Catlady

MLA Handbook is a style manual for research papers; it is not a book of grammar. If that is what your school used to teach you English composition, your school was nuts.

"That's putting it mildly, 007."

It did have a fairly decent grammar section in it, but you're right. The school was completely nuts.

[crich70]

My biggest teacher on how to write properly is the written word itself. There are the rigid rules of Grammar and punctuation and there are the written works of authors like Dickens, Twain, Wells, Verne, Clarke, Asimov, etc. I choose to pay attention more to the authors who have had books published and whose work I enjoy reading than to a rigid set of rules.

[Soldim]

Originally Posted by hidari

anal retentiveness about grammar is great for people who care..... I reckon most don't.....Story trumps anal retentive grammar faux pas any day...

English not being my first language, I am sure I am bound to miss many grammar en spelling errors. However, I tend to consider it a complete disrespect for the reader when books are riddled with errors that are so glaring obvious that even I notice them.

Having tried quite a few self published books, I have also noticed that sloppy grammar and spelling often goes hand in hand with sloppy story telling. So, my personal conclusion is that for the time being self published works are on average not worth my time. I am sure I miss many great books by only reading books from publishing houses -- but there's so many great books out there that I anyway won't be able to read more than a fraction of them during my lifetime.

[Cyberman tM]

Originally Posted by Fbone

It is behavior I will not put up with. [Change to:] It is behavior I will not tolerate.

That is a situation I have not thought of. [Chang to:] That is a situation I have not considered.

May be it's just me, but the second variant of the sentences seems more thoughtful, more calm - as if someone actually took the time to construct the sentence in their head before saying it.
(As opposed to just throwing out the words because the message needs to be there RIGHT NOW.)

[rkomar]

Originally Posted by Soldim

Having tried quite a few self published books, I have also noticed that sloppy grammar and spelling often goes hand in hand with sloppy story telling.

I agree with this. It seems to me that the problem is often that the writer cannot pull themselves out of their own thoughts and consider what they've written from another's perspective. The message "is obvious", so why waste time on grammar and spelling when the words can only mean one thing?

[Yamada]

This thread is epic. It was originally about the perils of self-publishing, then devolved into a battle of the proofreaders.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

What you see with most of what you call indie writers is the raw text straight from their mind with no interference or correction. I do a lot of proof reading, and I'm not exaggerating when I say no writer, whether pro- or self-published that I have read for writes perfect prose. Their spelling and grammar is all over the place because all they care about is the story. Everything else is the copy editor and proof reader's job.

I must respectfully disagree. Although I work in IT, I write for a living; I spend all day writing design documents, reports, specifications, etc, for business clients. Once you "know" how to write using correct grammar and spelling - and it's simply a matter of practice - that's how you write. I never have to stop and think whether to use "it's" or "its" - my brain knows how to write the right word without conscious thought. Anyone whose "spelling and grammar is all over the place" just hasn't put enough work into their writing to reach a point where they get it right without having to go back and correct it. To say that it's "a job for the proof-reader" is just a cop-out.

But don't pretend this sloppiness is restricted to "indie" writers who either can't afford or don't think they need a decent copy editor. I've got plenty of lists of mistakes that made it into pro-published books too. Some by very famous names. Like with the self publishers, it's all down to cutting costs.

I'm not pretending any such thing, as I've made very clear in my earlier posts in this thread. Certainly professionally-published books have errors. But they have far, far fewer errors than the average indie book. That's not to say that there aren't good indie authors - of course there are.