"fan fiction "...... - Page 11

HarryT · 07-09-2012, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

Suffice it to say, that I wouldn't dare take advantage of a person with special-needs and encourage them to do illegal activities.

But that's exactly my point (and I don't mean to be rude in saying this). As Yapyap very rightly says above, unless the show (or whatever it is) that the fanfic relates to specifically permits fanfic, isn't that just what you are doing?

spindlegirl · 07-09-2012, 04:57 AM

.................................................. ............

HarryT · 07-09-2012, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

No. And I did an extra Google search to see if there is anything illegal with the anime movie in question, and have yet to find anything. (I own the DVD and my receipt says I paid 30 dollars Canadian plus tax too.)

Buying a book or a DVD doesn't give you the right to create what copyright law calls "derived works" from it. (Or rather, it doesn't give you the right to publish them - obviously writing for purely personal consumption is perfectly OK). Do you not accept that this is copyright infringement?

spindlegirl · 07-09-2012, 05:29 AM

......................

HarryT · 07-09-2012, 05:38 AM

It's not a "crime", but I'm afraid it very likely is a violation of copyright, like it or not. I'm sorry, but that's just the way the law is. When you buy a DVD, all you're buying is the physical object. You're not buying any rights to the story, and you just can't (outside a few "fair use" purposes, such as literary criticism or review) just go around publishing stories derived from it without the explicit permission of the rights holder.

Yapyap · 07-09-2012, 05:45 AM

I think it's much harder for fans of films or TV shows to find proof of explicit permission by the copyright holder, as the copyright holder isn't usually the showrunner or director or actors or even the screenwriter - any one of these people, who are the ones actively creating the show, may be outspokenly pro-fanfiction, but this still wouldn't necessarily mean much.

And then it's probably complicated also for books that have been turned into films - for example JK Rowling may be okay with fanfic, but is it just her call to allow it or Warner Bros. as well? Does it matter whether the Harry Potter fanfic is purely based on book-canon or film-canon? Or mostly book-canon but borrows something, on purpose or inadvertently, from the films?

My own opinion (and yes, I realise this isn't saying much) is that if the original author is okay with it, or not explicitly against it, then non-profit fanfic isn't harming anyone (which is what the laws should be all about, shouldn't they?) - the existence of non-profit fan creations is in reality a lot more likely to help the original (by bringing in new fans, keeping the existing fans interested during breaks in new source material, etc) than it is to harm it.

In any case, I'm not a lawyer and I'm not an expert on either US or UK law, but from what I've been reading for years now, people who do have some knowledge about legal matters keep saying that fanfiction is essentially in a grey area right now - neither explicitly legal nor explicitly illegal, as there is apparently enough in both US and UK copyright law to suggest that if a case actually ended up in court, it wouldn't be clear-cut, and as fanfiction hasn't been explicitly mentioned in the respective laws, no one really knows whether it would for example in the US fall under fair use or not. Some people believe it's illegal; others believe that transformative works may be legal.

So it may or may not be illegal, and there hasn't been a clear precedent to point either way - that is what the Organisation of Transformative Works seems to believe, and I also recently came across an interesting thesis about the issues of ownership and legal issues regarding fanfiction.

One thing that does seem to be clear is that especially in the past, many anti-fanfic authors have been mixing up trademark protection and copyright protection and taken the view of "I cannot tolerate the existence of fanfic because I have to protect my copyright rigorously or I will lose it", which, as far as I understand, is not quite how copyright works - i.e. no matter how much fanfic is written and posted in public (and whether it's illegal to do so or not), it's not going to make the original author lose copyright.

But yeah, it is a grey area - what is also clear is that it's not explicitly legal, and I understand that people may have a problem with that concept. Again though, I think this is one grey area that is worth being explored due to the nature of this specific issue - creativity, influences of other creative works, transformative works etc - I think there's a way to find a good balance here between protecting the rights of the original creators (as much as they can be called "original" anyway, considering almost all authors throughout history have been influenced by the creations of others; and then there are authors whose published work is fanfic, just fanfic based on stuff now in the public domain, e.g. the various Sherlock Holmes pastiches, Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, etc) and not stifling the creation of more work, or simply stifling fan interest and making fans asking "what if...?" questions out to be criminals for daring to have curiosity and imagination.

spindlegirl · 07-09-2012, 05:48 AM

..............................................

HarryT · 07-09-2012, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

I've scoured the net trying to find evidence that what my daughter wrote is a violation of copyright. I've gone to the website of the movie in question and see nothing in the restrictions.

There won't be anything said on the website, because it's a protection imposed by the law. Just as, if you went to a car manufacturer's web site, you won't find a statement saying "it's illegal to steal this car". The manufacturer doesn't need to say it, because the law says it.

VaporPunk · 07-09-2012, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

There won't be anything said on the website, because it's a protection imposed by the law. Just as, if you went to a car manufacturer's web site, you won't find a statement saying "it's illegal to steal this car". The manufacturer doesn't need to say it, because the law says it.

What? Oh man, I'm in so much trouble!

spindlegirl · 07-09-2012, 06:08 AM

.............................

dillsandwitch · 07-09-2012, 06:39 AM

spindlegirl I think you should encourage your daughter to write if that is what she wants to do and is passionate about it.

Granted "fanfic" may breach the copyright laws but is they grey area that a few have mentioned. But then again i had many assignments in high school that were just that with out calling it fanfic.

"what do you think would have happened here if this went this way or that didn't happen... etc in books were studied in English class. even in our final exam for year 12 we had one of those...

i personally think fanfic is a great way to learn how to write. and frankly some published books i have read read like they were written by a five year old...

now i know harry wont agree with me on this and i respect that. but i think it is important to encourage you people to get into what they are passionate about and encourage them rather than tell them what they are doing is wrong.

kennyc · 07-09-2012, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VaporPunk

What? Oh man, I'm in so much trouble!

Yes. Yes you are.

HarryT · 07-09-2012, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dillsandwitch

spindlegirl I think you should encourage your daughter to write if that is what she wants to do and is passionate about it.

I entirely agree. It's not the writing that's the issue; it's the publishing.

Quote:

Granted "fanfic" may breach the copyright laws but is they grey area that a few have mentioned. But then again i had many assignments in high school that were just that with out calling it fanfic.

"what do you think would have happened here if this went this way or that didn't happen... etc in books were studied in English class. even in our final exam for year 12 we had one of those...

The difference is that those essays were not published. Writing for personal pleasure, or for a school assignment, is absolutely fine.

DrNefario · 07-09-2012, 08:27 AM

It's the meaning of "published" that seems to have broken things, in the age of the internet.

We have long been encouraged to create derived stories by the sale of toys and games (how can you not create a Star Trek story if you're playing a Star Trek table-top role-playing game?) but now it is trivially easy to make those stories available to everyone.

Sil_liS · 07-09-2012, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's not a "crime", but I'm afraid it very likely is a violation of copyright, like it or not. I'm sorry, but that's just the way the law is. When you buy a DVD, all you're buying is the physical object. You're not buying any rights to the story, and you just can't (outside a few "fair use" purposes, such as literary criticism or review) just go around publishing stories derived from it without the explicit permission of the rights holder.

If I remember correctly, when we had the discussion regarding your avatar your position was that you bought the object and you took a photo of it, so your avatar isn't infringing copyright. What is it about fanfiction that makes you reach the opposite conclusion?

07-09-2012, 04:57 AM	#152
spindlegirl Wizard Posts: 1,594 Karma: 21245891 Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Canada Device: Kobo Libra h20, Paperwhite 2017, Phone & Tablet w Moonreader	.................................................. ............ Last edited by spindlegirl; 07-09-2012 at 06:16 AM.

07-09-2012, 05:29 AM	#154
spindlegirl Wizard Posts: 1,594 Karma: 21245891 Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Canada Device: Kobo Libra h20, Paperwhite 2017, Phone & Tablet w Moonreader	...................... Last edited by spindlegirl; 07-09-2012 at 05:32 AM.

07-09-2012, 05:48 AM	#157
spindlegirl Wizard Posts: 1,594 Karma: 21245891 Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Canada Device: Kobo Libra h20, Paperwhite 2017, Phone & Tablet w Moonreader	.............................................. Last edited by spindlegirl; 07-09-2012 at 06:07 AM.

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07-09-2012, 05:38 AM	#155
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,557 Karma: 93980341 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	It's not a "crime", but I'm afraid it very likely is a violation of copyright, like it or not. I'm sorry, but that's just the way the law is. When you buy a DVD, all you're buying is the physical object. You're not buying any rights to the story, and you just can't (outside a few "fair use" purposes, such as literary criticism or review) just go around publishing stories derived from it without the explicit permission of the rights holder.

07-09-2012, 05:45 AM	#156
Yapyap Guru Posts: 861 Karma: 3543721 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Estonia Device: Kindle Paperwhite, iPad 3, Samsung Galaxy S7 Edge	I think it's much harder for fans of films or TV shows to find proof of explicit permission by the copyright holder, as the copyright holder isn't usually the showrunner or director or actors or even the screenwriter - any one of these people, who are the ones actively creating the show, may be outspokenly pro-fanfiction, but this still wouldn't necessarily mean much. And then it's probably complicated also for books that have been turned into films - for example JK Rowling may be okay with fanfic, but is it just her call to allow it or Warner Bros. as well? Does it matter whether the Harry Potter fanfic is purely based on book-canon or film-canon? Or mostly book-canon but borrows something, on purpose or inadvertently, from the films? My own opinion (and yes, I realise this isn't saying much) is that if the original author is okay with it, or not explicitly against it, then non-profit fanfic isn't harming anyone (which is what the laws should be all about, shouldn't they?) - the existence of non-profit fan creations is in reality a lot more likely to help the original (by bringing in new fans, keeping the existing fans interested during breaks in new source material, etc) than it is to harm it. In any case, I'm not a lawyer and I'm not an expert on either US or UK law, but from what I've been reading for years now, people who do have some knowledge about legal matters keep saying that fanfiction is essentially in a grey area right now - neither explicitly legal nor explicitly illegal, as there is apparently enough in both US and UK copyright law to suggest that if a case actually ended up in court, it wouldn't be clear-cut, and as fanfiction hasn't been explicitly mentioned in the respective laws, no one really knows whether it would for example in the US fall under fair use or not. Some people believe it's illegal; others believe that transformative works may be legal. So it may or may not be illegal, and there hasn't been a clear precedent to point either way - that is what the Organisation of Transformative Works seems to believe, and I also recently came across an interesting thesis about the issues of ownership and legal issues regarding fanfiction. One thing that does seem to be clear is that especially in the past, many anti-fanfic authors have been mixing up trademark protection and copyright protection and taken the view of "I cannot tolerate the existence of fanfic because I have to protect my copyright rigorously or I will lose it", which, as far as I understand, is not quite how copyright works - i.e. no matter how much fanfic is written and posted in public (and whether it's illegal to do so or not), it's not going to make the original author lose copyright. But yeah, it is a grey area - what is also clear is that it's not explicitly legal, and I understand that people may have a problem with that concept. Again though, I think this is one grey area that is worth being explored due to the nature of this specific issue - creativity, influences of other creative works, transformative works etc - I think there's a way to find a good balance here between protecting the rights of the original creators (as much as they can be called "original" anyway, considering almost all authors throughout history have been influenced by the creations of others; and then there are authors whose published work is fanfic, just fanfic based on stuff now in the public domain, e.g. the various Sherlock Holmes pastiches, Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, etc) and not stifling the creation of more work, or simply stifling fan interest and making fans asking "what if...?" questions out to be criminals for daring to have curiosity and imagination.

07-09-2012, 06:08 AM	#160
spindlegirl Wizard Posts: 1,594 Karma: 21245891 Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Canada Device: Kobo Libra h20, Paperwhite 2017, Phone & Tablet w Moonreader	.............................

07-09-2012, 06:39 AM	#161
dillsandwitch Enthusiast Posts: 39 Karma: 9064 Join Date: Jan 2012 Device: Sony PRS-T1, Kobo Aura H20	spindlegirl I think you should encourage your daughter to write if that is what she wants to do and is passionate about it. Granted "fanfic" may breach the copyright laws but is they grey area that a few have mentioned. But then again i had many assignments in high school that were just that with out calling it fanfic. "what do you think would have happened here if this went this way or that didn't happen... etc in books were studied in English class. even in our final exam for year 12 we had one of those... i personally think fanfic is a great way to learn how to write. and frankly some published books i have read read like they were written by a five year old... now i know harry wont agree with me on this and i respect that. but i think it is important to encourage you people to get into what they are passionate about and encourage them rather than tell them what they are doing is wrong.

07-09-2012, 08:27 AM	#164
DrNefario Wizard Posts: 2,215 Karma: 12029046 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: UK Device: Kindle, Kobo Touch, Nook SimpleTouch	It's the meaning of "published" that seems to have broken things, in the age of the internet. We have long been encouraged to create derived stories by the sale of toys and games (how can you not create a Star Trek story if you're playing a Star Trek table-top role-playing game?) but now it is trivially easy to make those stories available to everyone.

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