Excessive profanity in books

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by ShortNCuddlyAm

But why should showing disrespect to women be more shocking than showing disrespect to men?

Probably a throwback to a bygone age, but it's still fairly common to hear someone asked to mind their language because 'there are ladies present'.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by meromana

Hmm, I find this thread interesting. I wouldn't have imagined that so many people felt so strongly about the use of profanity in fiction. I rarely use profanity in real life, usually saving it for moments when I'm very angry and alone, for example, if a computer glitch caused me to lose a huge chunk of work, I might indulge in a four-letter tirade directed at my flat-screen monitor.

However, in fiction, I don't bat an eye when characters express themselves (dialogue or monologue) with personality-appropriate verbiage, no matter how offensive. If they're twenty year-old gang-bangers, I would expect foul language, and would it find it unrealistic for them to speak any other way. But even if they're, say, 40-something moms, the occasional string of cuss words would neither surprise nor fluster me. It's all about whether the words are appropriate for the characater.

--Maria

That's pretty much how I feel. If it's character-appropriate, I can handle it. What gets to me is when every character in the book uses a string of words considered obscene with every line of speech.

Usually I try to avoid blue language in real life, for no better reason than most people don't appreciate it, but if I bang my head or stub my toe, I guarantee I won't respond with, "Gee, that smarts!"

There are times, however, when only profanity will do. The "D" word is mild by today's standards, but shocking in the day when Clark Gable as Rhett Butler uttered it near the end of Gone With the Wind, but had he said, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a hoot," the power of that scene would have been greatly diminished. Likewise, in the song "You Oughta Know" by Alantis Morissette, the line, sung to a cheating lover, "Are you thinking of me when you f--- her?" strikes a powerful emotional chord that milder language couldn't touch.

It's the gratuitous use of blue language that irritates me. To me, it reveals a lack of writing skills.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by TGS

So, your original point, to which my post was a response, was that the use of profanities was an indication of a lack of language skills. The use of profanities may well accompany a lack of language skills, but they certainly do not indicate it - those who lack language skills may use profanities but it doesn't follow from that that those who use profanities lack language skills.

Well, that's true. George Carlin's language skills were excellent, and many of his routines were as blue -- and as funny -- as it gets.

But it's also true that many lesser talents use blue language to cover, consciously or unconsciously, their lack of writing skill.

[pendragginp]

I read about 5 pages of this thread and then gave up, but I'm sitting on the bench with the OP - I don't like it. And to me it *has* always seemed - well, unintelligent.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

Because the Chinese government threatened to reeducate me if I didn't start being antagonistic.

I remember reading in an Ian Flemming James Bond book years ago where Bond commented that in the Chinese language, there are no obscenities. This strikes me as hard to believe, but is it true?

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by Jakie

The idea that something is offensive, and possibly should be limited because of it, puts us on that slippery slope of political correctness that ends up eliminating any contrary thought. The liberal arts education of the 1960s and 1970s gave rise to populist movements such as the anti Viet Nam demonstrations. Fast forward to the late 1990s where students are ostracized and failed when they have opposing views....not illogical, just opposing. To get back to profanity. Catcher in the Rye was considered a book to be banned. Today it seems very tame. Still worthy, but tame.

I agree with you about the need to avoid censorship, and if teachers are flunking students for holding opposing view, that's wrong also. As long as students demonstrate that they've learned the material they were expected to learn; that should be all that's required. Whether they believe what they've been taught is a personal matter and is none of the instructor's business.

However, I think to draw a straight line from a liberal arts education to Vietnam war protests is a stretch. There are all kinds of reasons people across the political spectrum protested that war. Having a liberal arts background wasn't one of them.

Originally Posted by Jakie

Who was it who stated that they may not agree with what you say, but defend to the death your right to say it? (Not an American, so I may misquote here.)

John

That would be Beatrice Hall, who in her 1907 book, Friends of Voltaire, used that phrase to sum up Voltaire's outlook on life. She was English.

EDIT: Opps -- just got up to this post where I see Lady Fitzgerald has already answered that question.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Just about anything can be turned into a double entendre if done correctly.

"I'd like to renaissance her festival!"

Potty-mouth!

[TGS]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

It's the gratuitous use of blue language that irritates me. To me, it reveals a lack of writing skills.

If you judge the use of profanity in a particular bit of writing to be gratuitous have you not already decided that the writing lacks skill, and if that's right, doesn't what you are saying have a circularity about it? I don't like bad writing - and I'm not sure it is made any better or worse if it includes profanities. But generally I quite like swearing - it can be very effectively used or it can be ineffectively used, just like adjectives, displaced focalization, point of view and all the other tools at the disposal of a writer.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

...There are times, however, when only profanity will do. The "D" word is mild by today's standards, but shocking in the day when Clark Gable as Rhett Butler uttered it near the end of Gone With the Wind, but had he said, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a hoot," the power of that scene would have been greatly diminished...

I dunno. It worked for Kermit the Frog.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

I dunno. It worked for Kermit the Frog.

yeah, but his biggest critic is Miss Piggy

[Worldwalker]

<rant>

While we're ranting about modifiers, allow me to add my rant about adverbs. Now there's a sign of bad writing for you: superfluous adverbs. Also adjectives, in some cases, when they're telling instead of showing, but it's the adverbs that really stand out. Some people can't seem to live without sticking in as many as possible (including the people who write KCNA news stories, but what do you expect from North Korea?). If your writing is bad, adding modifiers won't make it good writing; it'll make it bad writing with modifiers. Note to writers: unless you're writing in German, you do not want to make it so your audience is silently waiting for the verb.

</rant>

[simonroyle]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

I remember reading in an Ian Flemming James Bond book years ago where Bond commented that in the Chinese language, there are no obscenities. This strikes me as hard to believe, but is it true?

NO!!!

The Chinese language, which is split into twelve regional dialects, amongst them Cantonese, Mandarin, Hakka etc, is FULL of obscenities.

A quite standard "motif" expression among less educated Cantonese, is, "Go F*** your mother." For every single cuss word we have, the Chinese, in every dialect, have at least one and in many cases more of their own.

I once got on a "London" bus in Hong Kong and went to sit on the upper deck. There were three construction workers sat in the back. I sat up front near the stairs. I liked sitting up top because that way you got an occasional glimpse of Victoria Harbor. At the next stop a very beautiful, young blond woman got on the bus and came and sat in between where I was and the Cantonese guys at the back of the bus. All the way from Mid-levels down to Central, they described in extremely vulgar and graphic detail what they would like to do with her.

She got off before I did, and when I got up to get off the bus I said to the guys, "Would you like someone to talk about your sister or daughter like that?" I'll remember the expression on their faces till my last breath.

[simonroyle]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

<rant>

While we're ranting about modifiers, allow me to add my rant about adverbs. Now there's a sign of bad writing for you: superfluous adverbs. Also adjectives, in some cases, when they're telling instead of showing, but it's the adverbs that really stand out. Some people can't seem to live without sticking in as many as possible (including the people who write KCNA news stories, but what do you expect from North Korea?). If your writing is bad, adding modifiers won't make it good writing; it'll make it bad writing with modifiers. Note to writers: unless you're writing in German, you do not want to make it so your audience is silently waiting for the verb.

</rant>

Your rant is dutifully, sincerely, advisedly, and, most very, appropriately noted.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by TGS

If you judge the use of profanity in a particular bit of writing to be gratuitous have you not already decided that the writing lacks skill, and if that's right, doesn't what you are saying have a circularity about it? I don't like bad writing - and I'm not sure it is made any better or worse if it includes profanities. But generally I quite like swearing - it can be very effectively used or it can be ineffectively used, just like adjectives, displaced focalization, point of view and all the other tools at the disposal of a writer.

I believe I already answered that in Post #153.

I like pizza, but I don't want it for every meal, and I wouldn't hire a cook for my family who made nothing but pizza.

In the first place, I could never afford a cook. And in the second place, such a diet would quickly become mind-numbingly dull.

To restate what I said in Post #153: There are great writers who use a great deal of profanity, but there are also many lesser lights who use profanity to cover their lack of skill. In any case, I don't enjoy gratuitous use of offensive language. (I don't consider Carlin to have used offensive language gratuitously. It always fit in with points he was trying to get across. There's a difference between extensive and gratuitous.)

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

I remember reading in an Ian Flemming James Bond book years ago where Bond commented that in the Chinese language, there are no obscenities. This strikes me as hard to believe, but is it true?

Don't know about the Chinese, but Japanese don't have much in the way of native obscenities. When I was in Japan 40 years ago (has it really been 40 years?), the worst thing you could call someone was "Baka" (a word meaning "fool; idiot; jerk; dolt; imbecile; foolish; stupid; worthless; absurd; ridiculous; Idiotic). Pretty serious stuff. These days, I'm sure there a few more...