Very disappointed with the way the tech is developing.

[harryE123]

I agree to a very small extent bout the overlap, no it's not 100% the same market, but I would wager its 80% for sure. The academic, military and industrial markets have jumped all over the ipad, you only have to read the stories about pilot programs using ipad only in schools and unis, the military in the uk using the ipad to train soldiers, mercedes adopting the ipad for their stores, all sorts of private apps being developped for said and other need. And of course there's anecdotal evidence, ie. the people we hear privately that have bought an ipad, there too the ipad has largely covered the traditional pc tablet market. And why wouldn't it to honest? Legacy apps on prior devices would be the only reason, but other than that it's slimmer, fast, lasts longer, has a better screen, and it's lighter amongst other things.

EowynCarter and Graham:

Originally Posted by djgreedo

iTunes has the best range of product (though Microsoft, Amazon, etc. are catching up very quickly), but iTunes is garbage. It's a terrible application for managing a music library, and it's ugly and sluggish. It's a shame I have to have it installed on my PC so I can buy music from the iTunes store.

[Graham]

Ah thanks, Harry. It wasn't clear there that you were replying to djgreedo's comment earlier.

However, MS doesn't force djgreedo to use iTunes; it's the catalogue available that's attractive.

Graham

[djgreedo]

Originally Posted by harryE123

3.5 million people in three months buying and ipad in a market where before they sold 3.5 million units in (what?) 5 years, and all of them not caring about functionality and interoperability? I am sorry but it's impossible to buy that. The reason ms haven't released a tablet is not the ludicrous "being busy cramming features" statement, it's because they are 4 years late with coming up with a decent mobile os

Microsoft are not really a hardware company. They have a tablet OS, it's called Windows, and that is my point. Most tech companies are trying to make tablets with full computer functionality. The technology still isn't at a point where a full-PC tablet is viable (outside of specialty areas, where tablets are actually used a quite a bit), which is why Apple created a less-capable device that gets the maximum out of the current technology limitations.

The reason iPads probably outsell tablet PCs is that consumers haven't wanted tablet PCs. They've been used by business users with specific needs. The iPad is aimed squarely at consumers who don't want full functionality (or more likely don't realise what they're not getting).

, it's because there is internal havoc of competing departments within the company coming up with non functional prototypes such as the courier (which in typical ms style is only leaked to get some vapourware attention away from the competition to be then dismissed)

The Courier was one of dozens of products that Microsoft looked into developing. It's quite obvious why the Courier wasn't completed - there is no market for those devices. Look at how many iPads are being sold compared to PCs or laptops and netbooks - an insignificant amount. There is no reason for Microsoft to enter a tiny market when they are making big money in other markets (mainly software). When the Courier first leaked there was no competition to take attention away from. The only tablets available at that time were running Windows or 'house' OSes.

, wrecking their acquisitions such as danger for kids phones that get canceled after 45 days while selling 500 units, relying on their partners for tablets with windows desktop the very same partners (hp) that after official presentations ditch them and embarrass them, because they don't yet have a good software app store or an ecosystem to integrate it with it, it's about letting others, namely apple, create markets for them and then entering, etc. etc.

HP haven't 'ditched' Microsoft. They make plenty of Windows computers (HP sell more computers than most computer manufacturers), and HP are soon to release the Slate Windows tablet PC. Your fanboyism is showing. In case you're not aware, the 'HP ditching the Slate' stories were fabrications. The Slate is due for release early 2011 running Windows (and also a WebOS version).

HP have been making Windows-based tablets/PDAs for a long time. I have an old HP PDA lying around somewhere. It was the first device I read ebooks on.

It's all that and more but being busy cramming features on their supposed tablet/reader they ain't.

You haven't said anything that points to your statement as being correct. It's quite obvious from the many tablets on the market (pre-2010) that manufacturers have been creating tablet PCs with full PC feature sets rather than dumbed-down products that favour form over function (like the iPad). As I said, this attempt to create full-fledged tablet PCs despite the technology not really being good enough is what led Apple to sneak into the gap in the market. It's not dissimilar to what Apple did with the iPhone. It came out with less features and capabilities than pretty much any smartphone on the market at the time, but what it could do it did well and was easier to use because of its simplistic design (and the first mainstream product to use a capacitive, multi-touch screen I believe).

(It sounded really humorous to me, you saying "better battery life" for apple products and in the very same sentence that these products are for those who don't care about functionality...)

I can do far more with my laptop than anybody can do with an iPad. It has far more functionality. My laptop's battery life is terrible. There is no contradiction between having a good battery life but limited functionality. It's quite an obvious trade-off. If my laptop had less graphics power or a smaller screen or less RAM it would get better battery life in exchange for reduced functionality.

And let me just ask if MS is so good and great, how come they force you to buy from the "terrible" itunes

As I said, iTunes is (in my country) the best place to buy music. Despite being terrible software, Apple simply has the best range of music. That has nothing to do with Microsoft. Microsoft's music products are far better than Apple's, but it is currently too difficult to buy music from the Zune Marketplace because it's not officially available in my country.

, and when someone asks you for you modern mobile os tablet from ms you have nothing to show them? Are they cramming features into their itunes variant too? Boy will this thing be choke full of features after 7+ years of it being non existent.

Your question is a goalpost mover.

You seem to be caught up in the Apple user tradition of assuming that because Apple does something it is the right way to do it. Don't forget that iPads account for a minuscule fraction of the computer market (there are around 1 million Windows PCs sold per day vs maybe 1 million a month for iPads in the period the iPad was brand new an snapped up by a lot of people who were going to buy it regardless of what it was).

There is no pressure for other manufacturers to compete there. I'm amazed at how many Android tablets are hitting the market, but they seem to be mostly from manufacturers who don't sell PCs/laptops/netbooks (e.g. Samsung). It's likely that if tablets hit the mainstream they will be running more complete operating systems like Windows (probably the stripped-down embedded version, which is more suited to a tablet) rather than walled-gardens like iOS. People eventually move to the open, more capable platforms (e.g IBM compatible PCs over Macs, Android is rapidly overtaking iPhone, and Windows Phone will probably regain a few % of market and leapfrog back over iPhone within the next 18 months).

I personally don't care for a tablet OS from Microsoft because if I was to get a tablet PC I would want it to run a full version of Windows. But I personally don't have a need for a tablet (I can't think of anything I would use one for. I have friends with iPads and they don't seem to use them for anything they couldn't do on their phone or a computer more easily. They seem to try to find excuses to use them). I'm not interested in the form factor at this point in time. Part of me wants a tablet because I love gadgets...but in this case I can't think of a single task I could do on a tablet that I can't already do better with my current gadgets.

Microsoft's 'iTunes variant', Zune, out-features iTunes already (wireless sync, music subscription, social aspects, etc.), and is a far better piece of software overall with both function and style, and the latest version of iTunes has cloned one of the major features that Zune has had since launch (the Zune social, laughed at by Apple fanboys in 2006, now copied by Apple and called Ping, though with a lazy, all flash and no substance approach typical of Apple).

Microsoft also of course make Windows Media Player, which is also far better than iTunes, though it's kind of a different beast. Both of Microsoft's media players/managers have been around for a while and neither is bloated (WMP is at version 12 and it runs beautifully compared to iTunes. Zune is 4 years old, though they sort of started from scratch with version 2, and it too runs better with each version even as they add features). iTunes is simply a badly made, badly designed afterthought (though I'm told the Mac version is much better than the Windows version. Apple don't seem to care for the 95% of their customers who use Windows). Why does iTunes require a 90MB download to update? At least they don't require updates to use the store.

But Microsoft's weakness in that area is the amount of product, especially video, which still lags behind Apple quite a bit (my guess is that the content publishers were burned by Apple's shrewd pricing and market dominance, and are pushing harder terms on other vendors now), and especially in the non-US market. That will hopefully change when Microsoft releases Window Phone 7, since those phones all include Zune playback and they are going to be sold worldwide. I feel bad buying from iTunes knowing that some of my money is going to a tech company run by a man who is paradoxically a conservative luddite.

[djgreedo]

Originally Posted by harryE123

. The academic, military and industrial markets have jumped all over the ipad, you only have to read the stories about pilot programs using ipad only in schools and unis, the military in the uk using the ipad to train soldiers, mercedes adopting the ipad for their stores

All those examples combine to form a drop in the ocean compared to computers though. The iPad form factor is ideal for a middle ground between laptop and PDA/smartphone, but I don't see any compelling evidence of a demand there beyond a few 'pilot scheme' type things. It will be interesting to see what happens. I think most business uses for a tablet will still require legacy software as you suggest, and that won't be available on a closed system like the iPad.

The biggest boost to the iPad seems to be that people weren't really aware that tablets existed before the media storm around the iPad. Apart from a nice screen I can't see anything about the iPad that trumps traditional tablets with their USB ports, software compatibility, and full PC capabilities. I actually heard news reports of Apple inventing a new form factor that was 'revolutionary'...not how I'd describe a large iPod Touch or slimmer tablet PC..

, all sorts of private apps being developped for said and other need. And of course there's anecdotal evidence, ie. the people we hear privately that have bought an ipad, there too the ipad has largely covered the traditional pc tablet market.

But the traditional tablet PC market was always very small, and for good reason - tablets are not very good at a lot of things. My belief is that the current tablet craze will largely calm down when people get over the apparent newness of it. It's no coincidence that the marketing around the iPad focuses on it's slim design and responsive touch screen rather than its capabilities (have you ever seen an ad for an Apple product that didn't place its looks at the forefront?).

But today a full-fledged PC is getting less important, so tablets may start to encroach on the PC market (tablet sales, including the iPad are ridiculously insignificant compared to computers, laptops and netbooks at the moment). For all of Apple's bragging about iPad sales (which they curiously didn't do at their most recent event, which either points to a drop in sales or a significant increase worthy of awaiting a monster announcement), they are not making a dent in PC sales, which is not what the blanket iPad media coverage would have you believe.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by djgreedo

I'm amazed at how many Android tablets are hitting the market, but they seem to be mostly from manufacturers who don't sell PCs/laptops/netbooks (e.g. Samsung).

Actually Samsung make great netbooks. I did a pile of research when my daughter was buying one earlier this year, including a number of hands on sessions in shops, and we ended up with a Samsung. Lovely keyboard, works beautifully. Top notch stuff.

They seem to do pretty good laptops too; it's just desktops they don't seem to be targetting.

Graham

[Dulin's Books]

Originally Posted by Graham

Actually Samsung make great netbooks.

Graham

The NC10 was arguably the best of the original swath of 10" netbooks. Best Keyboard by far.

[CyGuy]

Originally Posted by Dulin's Books

The NC10 was arguably the best of the original swath of 10" netbooks. Best Keyboard by far.

I agree, I actually bought 2 of the NC10 Samsung netbooks. Both have been absolutely fantastic.

I have some familiarity with using itunes, it is one of the worst programs I have ever seen or used. It was also not easy to uninstall it completely. That is one program I will never install on any computer I own ever again.

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by harry

You don't rely on a network to get a file, you rely on it to sync files

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rsync

ah, and just because I've forgotten to mention: the other "half" of the idea of yer so new great and shiny cloud computing is even older than the usage of fileservers.
Do the words "mainframe", and "dumb terminal" say something to you?

I honestly don't believe that the things you do are so number-crunching-intensive that the computing power of the machine(s) you own is insufficient for it.

the last time i needed to let the PC run over night calculating on a regular basis was in the beginning of the mp3 era when I converted files to burn them on an mp3 CD for my first porttable mp3 (cd) player.

the last time I had to do such an overnight numbercrunch session i converted the 4CD version of the game "feeble files" to get ogg audio and DXA video from wav audio and bink video files for ScummVM.

you must indeed be in need of a supercomputer

[harryE123]

@Free.
Honestly, and with no intention whatsoever of being ironic, I find it hard to see what your point is?

Originally Posted by Graham

Ah thanks, Harry. It wasn't clear there that you were replying to djgreedo's comment earlier.

However, MS doesn't force djgreedo to use iTunes; it's the catalogue available that's attractive.

Graham

Sure, but ms was in position of power (by far more power than apple had) to bring a product such as itunes with an attractive catalog yet they failed miserably with the interface, the drm, the labels, podcasts, itune u...pretty much in everything. So I was commenting in that implicitly they are forcing the other forum member to use the "terrible" itunes, because despite how good and great ms is to the other member's mind they have done most of the things he/she requires terribly. It's like waiting for mercedes for 10 years to come up with the car you want and then blaming bmw for coming up with a car that does do what you want to some extent yet you find it terrible. It's not apple's fault that ms under the guidance of an arch bozo, and in a climate of corporate culture that by all accounts is self destructive to say the least, have failed so consistently in some many areas such as drm, content delivery for media, mobile devices etc. etc.

Said bald guy was laughing in a mocking way when the iphone was released and bragged that windows (ce, me, or whatever excuse for a mobile os they had) where on so many phones. Where exactly are windows on smartphones at the moment? Nowhere. Because they failed to understand the concept of a syncing/content/managment software like itunes, failed to understand the concept of an app store, failed to understand the concept (again...) os os and hardware integration, failed to undertand the concept of imposing their rules on the carriers instead of the other way around, failed to understand the concept of providing regular mobile os updates separately from whatever the carriers did, failed to understand the importance of multi touch, etc. etc. They just failed on so many fronts, and miserably.

One can then hardly blame the "terrible" itunes for that. It's funny when all others are dragging their feet with glaring inadequacies that apple gets heat for the most minor issues.

[Freeshadow]

@harry
the one half of this marketbuzzwording "cloudstorage" refers to old fashioned fileservers, which if really badly needed can be realized as an @home solution, even with syncing abilities, so there is absolutely no need to put your precious private files on somebody elses machine. This remoteapps thing is as i pointed out an even older idea referring to the mainframe with terminals setup as in the beginning of computing.
This is even more stupid, since i hardly believe an avarage person needs more computing power than can be produced with todays desktop PCs. My experiences on how seldom and under what circumstances I needed as much computing power, at once, that i had to run the boxes over night to master the task shown.
show mw on the contrary any use of a "cloudnet" supercomputer the average user needs when taken into consideration how much computing power his machine produces?


my critics are
the whole "cloudcomputing" thing is:

• presenting ancient IT-concepts wrapped in new marketing buzzwords
• completely useless when looking at the ratio on how many power the average user uses and his average computer can produce.

this +the point that the all new shiny clowds cover the shine of your privacy and control over your data...

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

@harry
the one half of this marketbuzzwording "cloudstorage" refers to old fashioned fileservers, which if really badly needed can be realized as an @home solution, even with syncing abilities, so there is absolutely no need to put your precious private files on somebody elses machine. This remoteapps thing is as i pointed out an even older idea referring to the mainframe with terminals setup as in the beginning of computing.
This is even more stupid, since i hardly believe an avarage person needs more computing power than can be produced with todays desktop PCs. My experiences on how seldom and under what circumstances I needed as much computing power, at once, that i had to run the boxes over night to master the task shown.
show mw on the contrary any use of a "cloudnet" supercomputer the average user needs when taken into consideration how much computing power his machine produces?


my critics are
the whole "cloudcomputing" thing is:

• presenting ancient IT-concepts wrapped in new marketing buzzwords
• completely useless when looking at the ratio on how many power the average user uses and his average computer can produce.

this +the point that the all new shiny clowds cover the shine of your privacy and control over your data...

If you are that concerned about privacy concerns, then you will have to give up using any kind of credit/debit cards since that information could be accessed by governments, hackers, unscrupulous employees. You can't keep your money in banks for the same reason. But then, even money can be counterfitted. Good heavens, get over your paranoia and luddism. Even the argument that a govenment could access your data is lame because, if they really want it, all they have to do is seize your equipment.

Same as you shouldn't trust your financial dealings to any but the most reputable institutions, one shouldn't trust anyone with their data except the most reputable and reliable companies. Carbonite and Mozy are two affordable companies who have an excellent reputation. They offer a level of backup protection most home systems cannot; near instant, versioned, offsite backups. The data is encrypted so hacking can not access your data. To duplicate the same level of service with your own equipment, you would have to run an incremental backup to your own server or an external hard drive every few minutes, then immediately take a copy of that backup to a safe, offsite location such as a safe deposit box at a bank. It can be done but you would be continuously running to the bank and the equipment investment would be hundreds of times higher than the annual fee for Carbonite or Mozy. And again, one should not put all their eggs (data) in one basket. The minimum would be to have one onsite and one offsite back up.

[scveteran]

Originally Posted by harryE123

I am happy that you like your reader but it's offensive to suggest that just because some of us have been reading these forums for more than four years and expected that by then we'd eventually get some device larger than 6" with a very good screen, cross platform standards for ebooks (and not tied to particular vendors), intuitive os's etc. etc. etc. are just bitching for nothing. There have been a large number of people who would agree with me, surely they are not all misguided just because you like your digital reader.

It's close to self evident to anyone following this kind of tech that it hasn't evolved as we hoped for, be it for tablets overtaking them, be it for amazon stifling the market, be it for low margins on these devices because of competition from other gadgets or because of their single purpose nature, etc. etc. It's not like people are "bitching" here about some minor tech point on personal computers which are pretty mature technology, most have very valid, very pertinent points about a very immature technology that's not fitting a lot of people's needs, that need a lot of work to evolve, and that hasn't done so adequately or quickly enough as it once promised too with companies (irex) once market leaders folding (together with their larger screen products) and others (plastic logic) announcing long awaited vapourware.

And now you land from the moon, someone gives you a 1950s b&w tv set and you go, hey what's wrong it, I love watching tv on that. Well, good for you, but that doesn't mean that said tech is where it should be. And no one here has been asking for any futuristic additions to ebook readers, merely better and faster os'es, decent sized screens, and the ability to interchangeably read books on once devices from different vendors. That's hardly a bitchy demand.

Wow!!! Just because you have followed a forum for four years doesn't mean anything.

Four years is a very short time to come up with ideas, do research and development, raise funding, build plants, do the engineering, marketing, and then sell a new product.

Yet you want a lot of changes to have happened in that short time. That takes a number of product cycles with all of those things involved each time. I just don't see that as reasonable. You talk about this being an immature technology and PCs being a mature one. Yet, how long do you think that it took for that technology to mature?

[scveteran]

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

Apologists can try to vindicate the lack of development with excuses regarding financial viability, but as a consumer, I don't care.

I guess you don't care whether you get paid for working either. If you expect to get paid for what you do, then that company deserves to make a reasonable profit as well.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by harryE123

So I was commenting in that implicitly they are forcing the other forum member to use the "terrible" itunes, because despite how good and great ms is to the other member's mind they have done most of the things he/she requires terribly.

But that's not what djgreedo said. He said that he was forced to use iTunes because the Zune marketplace was not available in his country. He said that he felt that the Zune marketplace was better than iTunes and implied that he would use it if it was available to him:

Originally Posted by djgreedo

As I said, iTunes is (in my country) the best place to buy music. Despite being terrible software, Apple simply has the best range of music. That has nothing to do with Microsoft. Microsoft's music products are far better than Apple's, but it is currently too difficult to buy music from the Zune Marketplace because it's not officially available in my country.

Graham

[harryE123]

Originally Posted by Graham

But that's not what djgreedo said. He said that he was forced to use iTunes because the Zune marketplace was not available in his country. He said that he felt that the Zune marketplace was better than iTunes and implied that he would use it if it was available to him:



Graham

Graham, I feel this is just beating about the bush by the op, and I don't take their words at face value: if the Zune marketplace is so good, how would he know it, since it's not available in his/her country so he can evaluate how good it is? The op is from the U.K. how successful is a company like MS in their implementation and strategy if they can't even manage to open a store in the UK by 2011 while their competitor has done so years ago? It's not like the UK is some sub saharan 1 million people african state.

So this all falls back on to my arguments. If he is forced to use itunes in the UK because MS doesn't have an equivalent, then who is forcing him? Apple? Of course not. MS? For sure, since they don't have a marketplace there yet they have all the hardware/software that would warrant one. That's why I said that implicitly MS was forcing him to use itunes. Again with the tired car analogy, if I buy a mercedes yet they don't have a service/accessories shop in my country, and I am forced to buying from the bmw one, then who is forcing me to do so? Of course non other than Mercedes.

The complete reversal of reality when it comes to apple (stemming from the pc pundits and the junk they write out of spite about apple's success) means that some people will bad mouth apple who at least have a service (which to many is a great one) that they use and to some extent find satisfactory, and praise a company that regardless of being the market leader and by far the richest one hasn't even managed to bring something equivalent to market in their country for years. This to me is mind boggling, but it's a testament to how ingrained the idiocies that "journalists" (paid ones for the most part...) become to people, even in such matters as tech so as to not only skew reality, but to turn it on its head.