Seriously thoughtful How do you plan to prove you are a citizen?

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by wodin

Anyone who refuses to do his job because he thinks it's a disgrace should be looking for a new job.

If they try and enforce it, they'll be faced with an expensive federal discrimination lawsuit. If they don't enforce it, they'll be faced with a less expensive state lawsuit, and can call on the Federal government to help with the defence.

Hmm.

And your statement is very close to "I was just following orders".

[McKGrif]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

So basically, you have no idea how legal immigration works, do you? This is not a visa (temporary stay) issue, it's an immigration (path to legal residence) one, The Federal government issues you papers. They do get "out of date", but because it's due to their own slow processing times they don't hold this against you. You are still required to update the government if you change anything in your status.

You are calling, directly, for deporting most legal immigrants who have been waiting, in many cases years, to be processed. Just to be clear.

Y'know, if there were less people who were hostile to the idea that people might have beliefs different to them, we might not need to be so paranoid about international terrorists. Cram that where you wish.

Strange how people in the 'land of the free' have so much animosity towards people who simply want to share in that liberty. Especially since, if the rules they want to put in place to keep people out, had been around before their ancestors got in, they never would have gotten in themselves.

It's amazing how screwed up the morals of Americans have become.

Too few like you

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Cite the law.

It's called "The Patriot Act." It allows law enforcement personnel (Local, State, and Federal) to stop, detain without due process for as long as they want, search without 'probable cause,' and a whole slew of other violations of the rights the founding fathers fought so hard to give to us.

It was implemented following the 9/11 tragedy as a one year only clean-up measure, but written in such a way that if after that one year, it was not voted out, would turn in to a permanent law.

Do YOU remember being told that the voting time was approaching? I don't...

So today, the Patriot Act can be invoked by any law enforcement employee simply by saying 'gee, I think this person may be a terrorist. Better to err on the side of caution and search/detain/whatever for as long as it takes me to feel comfortable about it! That BIC lighter could be a nuclear device.'

Stitchawl

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by McKGrif

Strange how people in the 'land of the free' have so much animosity towards people who simply want to share in that liberty. Especially since, if the rules they want to put in place to keep people out, had been around before their ancestors got in, they never would have gotten in themselves.(

On my last visit to the States I happen to notice a bumper sticker on a car that read; "America - Love it or leave it!"

Imagine if the Indians greeting the Pilgrims at Plymouth Rock said" Hey... you guys don't believe in Gitcheemanitu! Go back to where you came from!" New York City would still belong to the Canarsies and the Cuyahoga River would never have caught fire! Damn illegal immigrants!

Stitchawl

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

It's called "The Patriot Act." It allows law enforcement personnel (Local, State, and Federal) to stop, detain without

Yea, except that wasn't the claim. The claim was "anyone in authority". If "anyone in law enforcement" had been the claim, I would of agreed.

[SameOldStory]

Originally Posted by rhadin

The cynic in me thinks this is just a Republican ploy to force the federal government to issue national identity cards without the Republicans having to say they actually favor them and alienate large numbers of their base. Crafty thinking if that's the thinking.

It really is a conspiracy! They think that if they can stop us from voting 2 or 3 times they may get back in office.
But it won't work 'cause we have the undead (dead) voters on our side.

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

On a less-than-funny note, when trying to write a check in a store, the clerk wouldn't accept my regular passport (extra sets of pages added because of so much travel) as valid ID, insisting instead on seeing a credit card with no photo at all!

Stitchawl

Lets say that you did write a bad check. Would the US government help track you down? Don't think so. But if you have their credit card # you can try to use that to cover their check – just incase they thought that they had the money in the bank. Simple mistake

On top of that he may never have seen a passport. I haven’t.

Originally Posted by bevdeforges

A few states have decided that it's better to get drivers registered (among other things to make sure they have insurance)

A drivers license just means that you have shown ID and can pass minimal tests. You don't need insurance or a car.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

And your statement is very close to "I was just following orders".

Take it easy. Where did you get THAT idea from. Certainty not from what he said.

Lets face it. The powers that be can spy on any one of us at any time that they want to. The Lack of a national ID system isn’t going to slow them down at all. So stop being paranoid.

A national ID system is not anti emigrant or anti minority. Its time has come. So stop trying to manufacture trouble and animosity.

[DawnFalcon]

I was making a point.

And oh, "surrender your rights, they don't matter anyway".

Sigh, there's a reason I hate the American left more than the American right, and periodically they remind me why. (Hint: not every country feels it needs to spent the vast sums the American government does spying on everything!)

To be plain, actually, I'm for Brin*'s plan of giving everyone, not just the government, access to all the cameras.

(*D.Brin, _The Transparent Society_)

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

Lets say that you did write a bad check. Would the US government help track you down? Don't think so. But if you have their credit card # you can try to use that to cover their check – just incase they thought that they had the money in the bank. Simple mistake

On top of that he may never have seen a passport. I haven’t.

That would have been true... had they written down the credit card number. The clerk did nothing more than glance at it. Never even checked to see my signature on the back. I have a feeling the clerk had never seen a passport either.

You might want to get one of your own while you are still able to. There are more and more restrictions to travel every year.

Stitchawl

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Sounds good to me. Here it is:

Sharpe's Law
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of someone using the word "liberal" as an insult approaches one.

I think it is true though.

[kennyc]

Well. I think there is a serious problem with illegal immigration and I hope the Arizona stance will finally flush it out and something will happen.

I have no issue with people trying to better their lives, but I do have an issue with them doing it illegally and in a manner that affects my life and my pursuit of happiness and a better life.

[kennyc]

And no, I'm not necessarily in favor of a National ID Card.

[Robert Minneman]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

If he had come from another country and boarded a flight in the US the outcome would have been exactly the same. The legislation changes nothing with regard to that.


I didn't give an example of anything so I have no idea what you consider to be poor. I didn't suggest that you don't need photo ID to board a plane - it just doesn't have to be a piece of US ID.

It was your example of boarding planes.

Is it not law that you must have a valid visa to be in the US?

I'm pretty sure it is. So if you even came from another country, you'd need valid paperwork, or by law you should be stopped.

Likewise, if you're in this country without valid paperwork and you are intercepted by law enforcement for breaking a law, you shouldn't be able to get away with breaking YET ANOTHER law, lack of valid visa, just because you don't like being asked for paperwork.

It's not a law that cares about citizenship, it's a law that requires law enforcement to ENFORCE the supposed law of the land, namely if you're NOT a citizen, please be courteous enough to follow all the rules while in our country. Please get a visa to get in, and maintain that visa while here, and oh by the way, please don't break any other laws.

I vacationed down in Mexico and apparently "jay walked" in front of cop in Cancun. He stopped me and asked for my paperwork. Thank GOD it was right in front of the hotel so that my wife could run back to the hotel room...

If the Mexican government is going to enforce their own laws, why shouldn't the US?

[Robert Minneman]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

So basically, you have no idea how legal immigration works, do you? This is not a visa (temporary stay) issue, it's an immigration (path to legal residence) one, The Federal government issues you papers. They do get "out of date", but because it's due to their own slow processing times they don't hold this against you. You are still required to update the government if you change anything in your status.

You are calling, directly, for deporting most legal immigrants who have been waiting, in many cases years, to be processed. Just to be clear.

Y'know, if there were less people who were hostile to the idea that people might have beliefs different to them, we might not need to be so paranoid about international terrorists. Cram that where you wish.

I know enough that I don't see anything in this law that requires ANYONE to be deported. As far as I can remember, I'm not bothering to look it up again, all it does is require that local law enforcement work with the federal government to establish their immigration status.

So I see the fed being able to say, "We got paperwork processing on this one, it's late, so he's ok." However, I do see where someone who NEVER had ANY paperwork AT ALL would be caught and hopefully sent back.

Y'know if you had to live with the results daily of rampant ILLEGAL immigration, the crime and the drain on public resources you'd want something done to get it under control.

I've got plenty of examples I can go through to show why this problem needs to be resolved.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

So, if all those questions were properly answered, and everyone knew what the ID cards were and accepted them... would you be for ID cards?

Hypothetically. But I have trouble imaging an answer to "who gets to demand to see the ID cards, and in what circumstances" that doesn't come off as either an invasion of constitutional rights against search & seizure, *or* completely useless.

I also have trouble imagining an effective way to deal with lost/stolen cards that doesn't completely screw over people who've already undergone some level of trauma. (If your house burns down, how do you prove your identity? If you've been mugged at gunpoint, how long will it take you to get a new card?)

And, kids... I wouldn't willingly allow the government to track my kids with an implanted device, and nothing else is going to keep kids & ID cards attached to each other.

They're not so much "questions" as "rhetorical devices to show how far we are from a society that could require ID cards without adding to oppression and abuse."

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by Robert Minneman

I know enough that I don't see anything in this law that requires ANYONE to be deported.

It is *technically* not correct to have your paperwork out of date, although they don't deport you for it. However, If you commit crimes, you may be deported. Having out of date paperwork is a crime under this law, because it doesn't recognise the issue of processing delays.

You can spout off all you like about illegal immigration, it's still going to screw a lot of perfectly legal, working immigrants and you are explicitly defending that.