Confessions of a Book Pirate

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck View Post
To fix the geographic distribution idiocy, we just need a ruling that says "the store is selling from its location, and is bound by laws addressing that location, regardless of where the buyer is sitting at time of purchase."

Except it isn't a tax issue--it's who gets the money for the book on the publisher's part. The UK publisher wants to sell from its location to whatever location rights it bought. The American publisher of the same book doesn't want you to buy it from the UK if you live in the US because THEY have the right to sell it to you. The author is compensated either way, but the publisher is not--often a publisher on the US will sell rights to a completely different company elsewhere--thus if that company doesn't get the sale, they paid for rights they are unable to benefit from.

Then there are snits all over the place.

[asjogren]

"To fix the geographic distribution idiocy" .... "it's who gets the money for the book on the publisher's part."

The idiocy makes customers angry. It results in fewer sales. And probably results in a more accepting attitude towards piracy.

Also GOUGING. Other than taxes, why should an eBook cost more in the UK than the USA? (OK, I'll accept additional editing for grammar, spelling, and usage - but not much of that really gets done.) These policies result in constraint of trade and in smaller markets, monopolistic behavior.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Except it isn't a tax issue--it's who gets the money for the book on the publisher's part. The UK publisher wants to sell from its location to whatever location rights it bought. The American publisher of the same book doesn't want you to buy it from the UK if you live in the US because THEY have the right to sell it to you. The author is compensated either way, but the publisher is not--often a publisher on the US will sell rights to a completely different company elsewhere--thus if that company doesn't get the sale, they paid for rights they are unable to benefit from.

Then there are snits all over the place.

When Amazon sells me a pbook, it looks at the states where Amazon has a physical presence, and either charges tax or not, depending on whether I'm in one of those states.

No reason ebooks shouldn't work the same way--allowing the *seller's* location (however that's decided), not the buyer's, to be considered the place of sale. Unless there's a ban on bringing that book across those country lines--like, a physical copy would be impounded at customs--there's no reason to restrict the sale across country lines, any more than they'd forbid a UK resident from walking into a US store and buying a book.

And it's often not the publishers selling these ebooks--it's resellers. Stores. No reason they shouldn't be able to sell to anyone who visits their online location.

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Except it isn't a tax issue--it's who gets the money for the book on the publisher's part.

Motivations for laws are hard to determine, but IMO the 'rationale' behind this law (if I can use such a word for something that I personally consider irrational) is the tax issue. I'm sure that publishers are also lobbying politicians regarding the law, based on who gets compensated for the sale, but the law was determined before geographic restrictions were imposed on ebooks. (I think-first I heard of GR was less than a year ago. I know that the GR existed in contracts, but I never heard of publishers insisting they be honored on ebooks before then.)

So, again JMHO, I think the law was based on pressure from the states, particularly those who collect sales tax from Internet sales.

[thename]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

If you buy from indie authors from Amazon, or backlist authors or even some small publishers we have the option of turning off DRM--which means you aren't going to lose your copy. It can be readily converted to other forms.

Actually, all of what you just stated is--by most definitions that the stores and publishers have embraced--technically piracy as by converting or backing up copies of a Kindle book you are violating the license you agreed to by purchasing said item:

Use of Digital Content. Upon your payment of the applicable fees set by Amazon, Amazon grants you the non-exclusive right to keep a permanent copy of the applicable Digital Content and to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Device or as authorized by Amazon as part of the Service and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Digital Content will be deemed licensed to you by Amazon under this Agreement unless otherwise expressly provided by Amazon.

A reader doing exactly as you--the author of said work--suggest is in violation of the DMCA and, therefore, pirating your work and implicitly infringing on your copyright and intellectual property.

This, in my view, is as bad as--if not worse--than DRM restrictions and is yet another reason Smashwords is one of the few stores which receives my business.

[Dulin's Books]

Originally Posted by asjogren

Should the eBook industry be special? If business actively plays the global market, why can't customers?

I didn't say it was right, i just said it is.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by thename

Actually, all of what you just stated is--by most definitions that the stores and publishers have embraced--technically piracy as by converting or backing up copies of a Kindle book you are violating the license you agreed to by purchasing said item...

Some contracts are legally null; agreeing to them is meaningless, because they weren't legal to begin with. (A contract that says, "we will supply your shipping company with boxes for $1.00 each, plus you will allow our delivery people to have sex with your warehouse workers," is not legally enforceable; taking the $1 boxes and refusing the sex is not a violation of contract.)

A bookstore can say, "you may only read books you buy from us on Sundays." They can't expect *enforcement* of that, and their only recourse, should they discover people reading on Thursdays, is to stop selling to those people--they can't sue them for breach of contract, and can't have them arrested for "stealing their profits" for reading "Sunday books" instead of buying extra "Weekday books" for reading on other days.

Some DMCA restrictions clash with rights copyright law acknowledges. Since those rights are tied to basic Constitutional principles in the US (freedom of speech being the most notable), I'm going to believe that copyright law is more relevant.

[thename]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Some contracts are legally null

Your first sentence is unassailable.

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Some DMCA restrictions clash with rights copyright law acknowledges. Since those rights are tied to basic Constitutional principles in the US (freedom of speech being the most notable), I'm going to believe that copyright law is more relevant.

This is less so. DMCA amends what you call "copyright law" and is, therefore, "copyright law" until the courts decide otherwise. Until then, I'd be hesitant about violating it based on your own understanding.

We can all hope and hold our breath for favorable outcomes to pending cases but until then you are likely in violation of the DMCA (and currently, copyright law) when violating an existing license (and definitely if you're circumventing DRM protection to do so).

But it's possible I'm wrong and am freely able to yank the DRM from a .MOBI so I can read it on my other devices--which would be awesome.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Except it isn't a tax issue--it's who gets the money for the book on the publisher's part. The UK publisher wants to sell from its location to whatever location rights it bought. The American publisher of the same book doesn't want you to buy it from the UK if you live in the US because THEY have the right to sell it to you. The author is compensated either way, but the publisher is not--often a publisher on the US will sell rights to a completely different company elsewhere--thus if that company doesn't get the sale, they paid for rights they are unable to benefit from.

Only partly true. If the book is available from a server in the US or a server in the UK, I'll probably go with the US server. Certainly if the choice is between a US server and a Chinese server, I'll go with the US server. In your example, the UK publisher is selling from its virtual location, and will probably get more online business from UK customers, because they're advertising their store there, so UK folks are more likely to be aware of it. Beyond that, I see no reason why the sellers shouldn't compete on a relatively level playing field. If a publisher buys the rights to distribute a book within a certain geographical location, and actually distributes the book, they'll likely get the business. If they don't make the book available, people who want to buy the book are likely to look elsewhere. Just like with print books.

I have three of the Harry Potter books in Canadian editions because they were printing on recycled paper and I chose to pay the extra to get those versions. I don't live in Canada. Amazon Canada warned me that the delivery guarantees on release wouldn't hold in my case, but otherwise had no problems selling me the book. I really can see no reason why the situation shouldn't be the same for ebooks.

And I suspect that once ebooks become a large enough part of the market, the online stores will pressure publishers to allow this. And they will be successful in getting a change because this practice hinges on an interpretation of law, not something spelled out in the law itself (i.e. the "location" of the buyer).

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

When Amazon sells me a pbook, it looks at the states where Amazon has a physical presence, and either charges tax or not, depending on whether I'm in one of those states.

No reason ebooks shouldn't work the same way--allowing the *seller's* location (however that's decided), not the buyer's, to be considered the place of sale. Unless there's a ban on bringing that book across those country lines--like, a physical copy would be impounded at customs--there's no reason to restrict the sale across country lines, any more than they'd forbid a UK resident from walking into a US store and buying a book.

And it's often not the publishers selling these ebooks--it's resellers. Stores. No reason they shouldn't be able to sell to anyone who visits their online location.

Ah, I see what you mean about taxes--but it is the state laws you have issue with, not Amazon. You are right, ebooks should work the same as pbooks where taxes are concerned. Of course, in my opinion, none of the states should be charging a tax on amazon purchases. That whole, "they have a footprint in my state thing" is just a problem period.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by nekokami

Only partly true. If the book is available from a server in the US or a server in the UK, I'll probably go with the US server. Certainly if the choice is between a US server and a Chinese server, I'll go with the US server. In your example, the UK publisher is selling from its virtual location, and will probably get more online business from UK customers, because they're advertising their store there, so UK folks are more likely to be aware of it. Beyond that, I see no reason why the sellers shouldn't compete on a relatively level playing field. If a publisher buys the rights to distribute a book within a certain geographical location, and actually distributes the book, they'll likely get the business. If they don't make the book available, people who want to buy the book are likely to look elsewhere. Just like with print books.

I have three of the Harry Potter books in Canadian editions because they were printing on recycled paper and I chose to pay the extra to get those versions. I don't live in Canada. Amazon Canada warned me that the delivery guarantees on release wouldn't hold in my case, but otherwise had no problems selling me the book. I really can see no reason why the situation shouldn't be the same for ebooks.

And I suspect that once ebooks become a large enough part of the market, the online stores will pressure publishers to allow this. And they will be successful in getting a change because this practice hinges on an interpretation of law, not something spelled out in the law itself (i.e. the "location" of the buyer).

Well, I agree with you on HOW it should work--what I was clarifying is that it doesn't work because the UK (example) paid 15,000 dollars to the American publisher for the right to sell in the UK. That UK publisher doesn't want his customer going to American Amazon and getting a copy because it sees none of that money.

It was only meant to clarify. I agree that it isn't working the way it should. The old geographical problems are sadly out of date given the technology. And I do agree that piracy might not occur so often if the publisher and those concerned got things straightened out so that people could *buy* the things they actually are willing to pay for.

[llreader]

Food for thought - how many people who consider copying theft have ever sung "Happy Birthday to You" in a public place (street, restaurant, etc.)?

You owe some people money. And may technically be a criminal. Of course, you probably didn't know, but from now on I expect that you will send in your check any time you sing with the guys in the bar or at work.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by llreader

Food for thought - how many people who consider copying theft have ever sung "Happy Birthday to You" in a public place (street, restaurant, etc.)?

You owe some people money. And may technically be a criminal. Of course, you probably didn't know, but from now on I expect that you will send in your check any time you sing with the guys in the bar or at work.

And everybody who has ever watched a DVD with more than one other person is also breaking the law. That's a public performance you criminals!! An unauthorised exhibition!! How is Robert De Niro going to afford the purchase of another luxury hotel with you dirty thieves not paying for extra copies for all those other free loading naughty people to watch, huh, huh!? Did you think about that when you were stealing from Mr. DeNiro, I bet you didn't, did you? Shame, shame. If you don't buy the DVD's then how are Hollwyood's finest and brightest stars supposed to afford cocaine and hookers? Ask yourself that, naughty person, the next time you lend your friend a DVD!

[-read-]

OCR a book or read a photocopied PDF on your E Reader?

I get a lot of PDFs to read which are not text-selectable eg journal articles and I am waiting for a reader which can show and organize such images.... It is also relevant for pirates, who might scan a book without OCRing it.

[asjogren]

I think we need an overhaul of Copyright and DMCA. Something that balances the rights of creators, vendors, customers, and the public. Death +70, as in the UK, seems out of whack compared to patents.

If "normal" social activities - like showing a DVD in one's home with visitors are illegal - then there will be total disrespect for the law.

If being unable to purchase a book because it is unavailable locally, but you "can't" buy it remotely because of "turf wars".....

All it takes is one little country to change it's copyright laws and setup a huge electronic media supermarket - kind of like tax havens for the wealthy, but for music eBooks, and video. Don't expect any positive change from the US government. The Industry's free speech is more "equal" than any of the other groups. How many congressmen do you own or rent?