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View Poll Results: Global warming or not, man-made or not?
It's all our fault! And we should do domething about it. 85 40.09%
It's all our fault, but it is too late to mend it. 10 4.72%
It is happening, but not our fault. (part of the planets natural cycle) 52 24.53%
Don't believe in Global warming, it's all a fabrication. 36 16.98%
The blue fish, in the sea (which isn't rising) 10 4.72%
Non of the above... 19 8.96%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-01-2009, 03:23 AM   #136
lene1949
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I believe it's just the Earth's cycle... Reading back we've had global warming before, and further back we have no idea...
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Old 12-01-2009, 03:26 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Icarusbop View Post
...There is also something about CO2 not being able to store enoguh heat/energy compared to water vapor, making water vapor a lot more ipmortant in the grand scale of things than CO2 is, but I cannot remember the details.
But for some reason this info is not shouted from the rooftops longside the other 'data' they spout.
I'm not sure that's true. 'The Britannica Guide to Climate Change' openly states:
"Water vapour is the most potent of the greenhouse gases in Earth's atmosphere..." and then describes how it's role differs from the other greenhouse gases as it's concentration 'cannot vary freely'.

If this populist guide openly discusses the role of water vapour, I don't think it's being covered up elsewhere.
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Old 12-01-2009, 04:28 AM   #138
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All I've done is point out the limited facts, the limited timeline those facts have been gathered in (as opposed to the scale these things work in), to point out you don't have any certainties to work with.
We're fairly certain how much CO2 we're putting into the atmosphere.

If our knowledge of climate science is limited, other than knowing there have been significant and unpredictable changes in the past, is it a good idea to continue adding CO2 at the current rate if we have absolutely no idea what the effects will be?
Would it be better to limit emissions as much as possible until we know what the outcome will be (the precautionary principle)?
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Old 12-01-2009, 05:29 AM   #139
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We're fairly certain how much CO2 we're putting into the atmosphere.

If our knowledge of climate science is limited, other than knowing there have been significant and unpredictable changes in the past, is it a good idea to continue adding CO2 at the current rate if we have absolutely no idea what the effects will be?
Would it be better to limit emissions as much as possible until we know what the outcome will be (the precautionary principle)?
+++

The voting is now at about 80% agreeing that GW is happening. (this is a public service announcement )

To take this concept one step farther. We've seen the effects of what we humans do to things over and over. We cause the dust-bowl in the 30's because of over-indulgence. We filled the East River and rivers everywhere with garbage and destroyed their life-sustaining power. We've clear-cut forests that will take thousands of years to return. Is it not time to tread more lightly, to live more sustainable lives, to protect the world around us rather than rape it?

I don't mean to sound like some new-age tree-hugger, but we must find ways to live without destroying. As George Carlin said up there somewhere...the universe doesn't care, we better.
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Old 12-01-2009, 10:29 AM   #140
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To take this concept one step farther. We've seen the effects of what we humans do to things over and over. We cause the dust-bowl in the 30's because of over-indulgence. We filled the East River and rivers everywhere with garbage and destroyed their life-sustaining power. We've clear-cut forests that will take thousands of years to return.
To be clear, we caused these things because of ignorance of the consequences of our actions... a lack of understanding of the forces involved, the scope of our impact, and an assumption that the planet would sweep the mess away somewhere and fix itself faster than we could mess it up. We now have clear evidence that this is not the case, the planet cannot keep up with our impact on it.

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Is it not time to tread more lightly, to live more sustainable lives, to protect the world around us rather than rape it?.
Absolutely. The days of expecting the Earth or our kids to clean up our messes must end. We need to take direct responsibility for taking care of this planet, and we need to start three decades ago.

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Old 12-01-2009, 10:38 AM   #141
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Given that global warming caused by human beings would be something that took hundreds of years, if not millenia, to manifest itself, what repeatable and replicable experiments that would prove it have scientists been able to carry out?
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I think you need to ask the scientists that published the studies that.

one way is computer modelling.


take, for instance, the state of the weather a few decades ago; run climate models from that starting condition which should result in as close an approximation to the current climate as possible.

If this is done just using 'natural' phenomena, there is an error at the end of the calculations.

In order to obtain a 'correct' result a fudge factor is required; that fudge is the 'missing link' attributed to "mankind's influence", when all other possibilities are discounted.
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Old 12-01-2009, 10:49 AM   #142
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The irrefutable fact is that there is climate change occuring right now.

The irrefutable fact is that there is ALWAYS climate change occurring. Always has been and always will be, as long as there is a climate to change!

When the atmosphere is gone, as it will be in some distant future, all bets will be off.
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Old 12-01-2009, 10:54 AM   #143
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climate change is a handle used to describe a range of global climate that is diverging wildly from the average....(don't ask me what the average is..... )....probably "since records began"....

think about it,
"since records began" no one has used the Northwest Passage, Antarctica is loosing ice cover (arguably these last two will be limited to our 'modern' knowledge of (say) 200 years), as is Greenland and some of the mountain ranges. permafrost is melting during summer months, as well as ice around the North Pole.
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Old 12-01-2009, 10:55 AM   #144
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To be clear, we caused these things because of ignorance of the consequences of our actions... a lack of understanding of the forces involved, the scope of our impact, and an assumption that the planet would sweep the mess away somewhere and fix itself faster than we could mess it up. We now have clear evidence that this is not the case, the planet cannot keep up with our impact on it.



Absolutely. The days of expecting the Earth or our kids to clean up our messes must end. We need to take direct responsibility for taking care of this planet, and we need to start three decades ago.
Yes. Thanks Steve.
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Old 12-01-2009, 11:14 AM   #145
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The irrefutable fact is that there is ALWAYS climate change occurring. Always has been and always will be, as long as there is a climate to change!

When the atmosphere is gone, as it will be in some distant future, all bets will be off.
Quite true. I count myself amongst skeptics as far as the final results of the science, but have more faith in science than economic decisions to tell us what is going on.
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Old 12-01-2009, 01:57 PM   #146
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Quite true. I count myself amongst skeptics as far as the final results of the science, but have more faith in science than economic decisions to tell us what is going on.
Too true. Most of the problems we've caused... as well as the lack of solutions and action to fix the problems... have been dictated by ledgers, not reality.
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Old 12-01-2009, 04:12 PM   #147
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Interesting article on this very topic on the BBC web site today - here.
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Old 12-01-2009, 04:38 PM   #148
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Interesting article on this very topic on the BBC web site today - here.
This article is HORRIBLE. First note that it is a VIEWPOINT (not a legitimate news article) Not once does it mention the scientific method which is the basis of science. I suppose because what they are attempting to push is some sort of public Committee Method of Science. Who are these yahoos?


It's Thanks for the humor Bilbo

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Old 12-01-2009, 04:44 PM   #149
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This article is HORRIBLE. First note that it is a VIEWPOINT (not a legitimate news article) Not once does it mention the scientific method which is the basis of science. I suppose because what they are attempting to push is some sort of public Committee Method of Science. Who are these yahoos?


It's
It's actually impossible to discuss anything with somebody who is too stupid to appreciate anybody else's point of view but their own.

I'm happy for you that you are so pleased with yourself but given that this thread has become your one-man crusade to spread your ignorance, I won't be having any more to do with it
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Old 12-01-2009, 05:15 PM   #150
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Please refrain from devolving to the use of insults. Thank you.

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