Kindle Geographic Restrictions On US Website - Against US Buyers

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by meraxes

You know, when blacks were not allowed on the same bus with whites, or when women would not even be considered for a decent job, that too was "based on the old world order". And "working around those restrictions" was pretty easy too. You could just find some other country to live in, or be a housewife and spend all your life in front of the kitchen sink, what's wrong with that?

In your "old world", geographic restrictions on selling books were based on the real-world limitations, so they were not discriminatory. You couldn't blame Waterstones for not opening a store in Congo so that some tribsman could buy a book in English. Now, however, this tribesman is one click away from the store, but the store refuses to treat him as a paying customer because he's from the wrong continent. The online stores and publishers keep acting as if the real-world geographic limitations still apply on the Internet, and refuse to recognize that technology has made their old business model blatantly discriminatory and anticompetitive. Old restrictions on WHERE you can sell (which are merely obsolete and anti-free trade) have somehow been translated into restrictions on WHO you can sell to, which are just plain wrong, unfair and anticonstitutional.

So if the publishers don't respect my basic rights, they should not act all outraged if I refuse to respect their rights in return. Call it stealing if you like, it means nothing to me. If copyright holders throw my money in my face because they don't like my nationality, I'll help myself to their "copy" for free and won't feel any compunction about it.

To take your hilarious analogy a little further. So someone doesn't sell to you because you are gay, black, or Jewish, whatever. So what is the right course of action? Hit the man over the head and steal the item or sue the guy for discrimination?

There are plenty of restrictions, for cars, for electronics, you name it. Distributorships are assigned to have local sales and service in a particular country. And companies that take over a distributorship expect reasonable protection so that they can return a profit for their efforts.

Additionally there is censorship for books in many countries. In some European countries books cannot be discounted. There are countries with VAT on internet purchases. So I say it again, your country may force booksellers not to sell to its citizens.

You are not really arguing your point, you plainly are just looking for an excuse to download the books illegally for free. Apparently you still have a conscience and try to shout it down. Sorry, theft is theft -- there are no excuses.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by meraxes

You know, when blacks were not allowed on the same bus with whites, or when women would not even be considered for a decent job, that too was "based on the old world order". And "working around those restrictions" was pretty easy too. You could just find some other country to live in, or be a housewife and spend all your life in front of the kitchen sink, what's wrong with that?

Excuuuuse me? Are you really comparing apartheid with being a 'housewife'?

Do you have such a low opinion of motherhood, raising children and caring for a family that you would regulate to the "old world order"? And claim it wasn't even a decent job?

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Excuuuuse me? Are you really comparing apartheid with being a 'housewife'?

Do you have such a low opinion of motherhood, raising children and caring for a family that you would regulate to the "old world order"? And claim it wasn't even a decent job?

I doubt it was intentional, but you might consider changing your nick, 'Grand Wizard' when commenting on apartheid & old world order? (Even if you are against them, it still brings-at least to me-the wrong memories.)

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

I doubt it was intentional, but you might consider changing your nick, 'Grand Wizard' when commenting on apartheid & old world order? (Even if you are against them, it still brings-at least to me-the wrong memories.)

The 'nick' changes automatically here.

See,.........I didn't even make the connection.

[meraxes]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

To take your hilarious analogy a little further. So someone doesn't sell to you because you are gay, black, or Jewish, whatever. So what is the right course of action? Hit the man over the head and steal the item or sue the guy for discrimination?

There's a legal course of action, and there's the right one, which are not necessarily the same. The copyright business model is only "legal" because most people rightly believe authors should be rewarded for their creative work, and copyright is the only way to do it the world has invented so far. But if this business model is screwed up by the publishers to the extent that I'm left with no legal way to obtain the book because I come from the "wrong" country, then I no longer feel obliged to respect this business model. The publishers discriminate against me, for their twisted business reasons, simply because they can - well, I'll just take what I want from them, because I can, too, and they've left me no other way. They can't trample on my rights and still demand respect for theirs. It's still illegal of course, but not "wrong" in my book - when someone hits me, I hit back. And the author would not get a penny from me in any case, his publishers simply won't take my money. So there's no point trying to make me feel guilty by calling it "theft" - call it what you like in fact, I don't care.

Originally Posted by HansTWN

There are plenty of restrictions, for cars, for electronics, you name it.

No there are not, you're missing the point again. There are plenty of restrictions on WHERE you can sell, which people fail to recoginize as blatantly anticompetitive, a form of a cartel agreement in fact - but they are not actually deemed illegal at this point. Whereas geo restrictions on electronic books and media are the only example of restrictions on WHO YOU CAN SELL TO. And these are just plain discriminatory and anticonstitutional.

It's one thing to say you can't sell in AMERICA - though in our world of free trade I hope the authorities will soon recognize that this just stifles competition and hurts the consumers. It's an entirely different thing to say you can't sell to the AMERICANS. That's discrimination pure and simple, and it's outlawed in every country on the plant. Ford, for example, can choose not to sell its tiny Ka model in America. But it can't refuse to sell it to an American who walks into a Ford dealership in Europe, simply because he's an American. Whoever authorized that practice would face a jail term. As for publishers, they are free to pursue maximum gain, just as any other company. But when their business practices begin to run counter to fundamental ideas of justice and fairness, these practices need to be tossed out of the window, not brandished as a legitimate justification for continued discrimination.

[meraxes]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Excuuuuse me? Are you really comparing apartheid with being a 'housewife'?

Yes that's exactly what I'm doing. If being a housewife is the only option the woman is given by society, then it's no better than apartheid. You'll find that this has actually been recognized in every country apart from a few fundamentalist Islamic regimes.

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Do you have such a low opinion of motherhood, raising children and caring for a family that you would regulate to the "old world order"? And claim it wasn't even a decent job?

Do you understand the difference between staying home and raising children because you choose to, and because you are not allowed anything else? Or do you have such a low opinion of women's freedoms?

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by meraxes

It's one thing to say you can't sell in AMERICA - though in our world of free trade I hope the authorities will soon recognize that this just stifles competition and hurts the consumers. It's an entirely different thing to say you can't sell to the AMERICANS.

I think you're missing a "small" point in your argument here. Following your analogy, they don't say that they don't sell only to Americans, they say that they don't sell if you're outside USA. They don't look at my birth country, they look at my residence country.

[meraxes]

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

I think you're missing a "small" point in your argument here. Following your analogy, they don't say that they don't sell only to Americans, they say that they don't sell if you're outside USA.

That is not correct. For their distribution model it makes no practical difference where the customer is - electronically, he's right inside their server in America, so why discriminate against him? And how is sending a book by wire (which they refuse to do) is any different from sending it in a box by post (which they continue to do)? The only difference for them is that the customer is not American, and that's the reason they refuse to sell to him.

Furthermore, the worst of them refuse to sell even if the foreign customer is physically in America, which directly addresses your point and shows it to be incorrect. I tried to buy an Audible subscription last week, (and Audible is an Amazon company btw) - but knowing that a huge proportion of their titles (including the ones that were the reason to subscribe for me) were not available in Europe, I tried to register with my friend's US address. But as soon as I started filling in the details of my UK-registered VISA card, the site would automatically redirect me to the UK site. So even if I was actually staying in America, they would refuse to sell to me because they figured from my UK card that I'm not an American. And that is stark naked discrimination. Because of this idiocy they've lost the 225 dollars I was prepared to pay them for their 24 book credits in one go, and the title I wanted to download from them is actually available, it turns out, from at least three different torrents.

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by meraxes

That is not correct. For their distribution model it makes no practical difference where the customer is - electronically, he's right inside their server in America, so why discriminate against him? And how is sending a book by wire (which they refuse to do) is any different from sending it in a box by post (which they continue to do)? The only difference for them is that the customer is not American, and that's the reason they refuse to sell to him.

You can say that, but if I go to New York, and I change my address to New York, I only have to update my address, not my original country, my card or something else, so not phobia there.

Originally Posted by meraxes

Furthermore, the worst of them refuse to sell even if the foreign customer is physically in America, which directly addresses your point and shows it to be incorrect. I tried to buy an Audible subscription last week, (and Audible is an Amazon company btw) - but knowing that a huge proportion of their titles (including the ones that were the reason to subscribe for me) were not available in Europe, I tried to register with my friend's US address. But as soon as I started filling in the details of my UK-registered VISA card, the site would automatically redirect me to the UK site. So even if I was actually staying in America, they would refuse to sell to me because they figured from my UK card that I'm not an American.

Sorry, I must disagree, or perhaps they like more Spanish cards than UK cards.

[meraxes]

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

Sorry, I must disagree, or perhaps they like more Spanish cards than UK card.

What, you mean you've registered with Audible's American site using a Spanish-issued credit card? That must be because there's no Spanish Audible site, or they'd turn you down too, just like they've turned me down. Anyway, there may not be a Spanish site for now, but there is a UK and an Australian site, with a much smaller selection of titles, so brits and aussies are not allowed to buy books from the American store. Now which ones should we designate as the proverbial dogs, and which as the Irish, I wonder?

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by meraxes

What, you mean you've registered with Audible's American site using a Spanish-issued credit card?

Yes, thar's right.

Originally Posted by meraxes

..., or they'd turn you down too, just like they've turned me down.

I can say they hadn't turned me down.

[meraxes]

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

Yes, thar's right.



I can say they hadn't turned me down.

What can I say? Lucky you. That still does not negate the fact that the entire population of the UK and Australia are not allowed to buy thousands of audiobook titles that are only available from the US site, unless they have access to some foreign-issued credit card - even if they come to the US in person. And to buy a Kindle book from an American store, they have to know about the "change location" loophole (which I didn't until yesterday) and be prepared to lie about their whereabouts. Meanwhile, tens of thousands of titles can be downloaded for free from the torrents, including the latest bestsellers. Must the publishing industry go through a bloodbath and shrink by a third, like the music industry has, before they realize it's not the 19th century any more?

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by meraxes

What can I say? Lucky you. That still does not negate the fact that the entire population of the UK and Australia are not allowed to buy thousands of audiobook titles that are only available from the US site, unless they have access to some foreign-issued credit card - even if they come to the US in person. And to buy a Kindle book from an American store, they have to know about the "change location" loophole (which I didn't until yesterday) and be prepared to lie about their whereabouts. Meanwhile, tens of thousands of titles can be downloaded for free from the torrents, including the latest bestsellers. Must the publishing industry go through a bloodbath and shrink by a third, like the music industry has, before they realize it's not the 19th century any more?

I agree with you. And I'm not sure they're not going yet through a bloodbath. But I prefer lie about my whereabouts and the writer receives money (yes, publisher too, I can't avoid it) than getting it for free and stealing to the writer. And yes, for me it's a robbery, and it's MY opinion, everybody has one.

[kennyc]

Sheesh!

(not you Terisa)

[meraxes]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Sheesh!

(not you Terisa)

Well argued mate