Re-selling DRMed ebooks: Legal or not?

[rrburton]

So, Harmon and others, mobileread staff - might it not be worthwhile to organize a challenge to some of these issues that are in discussion in relation to eBooks? How about adding a used ebooks for sale section to the forum or opening a new website for it? What's your guess on how fast the C&D would come?

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by rrburton

So, Harmon and others, mobileread staff - might it not be worthwhile to organize a challenge to some of these issues that are in discussion in relation to eBooks? How about adding a used ebooks for sale section to the forum or opening a new website for it? What's your guess on how fast the C&D would come?

"Worthwhile" depends on from what perspective.

A worthy cause, in that challenging publishers & ebook retailers on the issue of ebook resale would likely eventually result in more protection of consumer's rights? Yes.

Worth the C&D or lawsuits that might be thrown at the first person or org to try it? That depends on their assets and access to good lawyers.

If I were a bit more web-savvy, I might consider opening a "used ebook store/exchange." I don't recommend Mobileread doing so; I don't want Mobileread's forums & free ebooks to be off the internet for two years while the court case resolves.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by rrburton

Presently available and has been since forever - http://www.computerhope.com/movehlp.htm

Of course and it is available in all versions since DOS. It is the default for drag and drop for windows when the target window is on the same drive and available with right click for drags to a different drive.

[Krystian Galaj]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Of course and it is available in all versions since DOS. It is the default for drag and drop for windows when the target window is on the same drive and available with right click for drags to a different drive.

When moving between drives, it still makes a copy of the file and then deletes the original though

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Krystian Galaj

When moving between drives, it still makes a copy of the file and then deletes the original though

So what?

Every time you read an eBook you're creating a copy in memory. OMG, we're all pirates!

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

So what?

Every time you read an eBook you're creating a copy in memory. OMG, we're all pirates!

And do not forget the copy on the reader's screen. I mean it is a copy of the electronic file.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by HarryT

If you buy your books from Fictionwise, then only you are permitted to read them. Not your wife, not your children, not your dog, not your friends .

If I'm only allowed to read the eBook I bought, then why can I register multiple computers with MS Reader and have multiple PIDs on a Mobipocket file?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It does in the sense that, if you lend someone a paper book that you've bought, then you are lending them the original item. You're doing the same thing if you lend them your physical e-book reader with an eBook on it. If, however, you make a copy of an eBook and "lend" them that, then you are violating copyright law by making an unauthorized copy. It would be like lending a friend a photocopy of a paper book - something which I think that everyone would agree is a copyright violation. You are permitted to make photocopies, but only for personal use.

But, if I lend my Reader, I am lending a COPY. The original is on my hard drive someplace. What's on the reader is not the original. And I'm not about to go deleting books from my computer just so I can let someone else read. I do let my wife and mother-in-law read the books I have if they want. I feel it's no different then loaning the pBook.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by tompe

Well, you can move it to your computer instead (mv in Unix). So you do not have to copy. But this is a technical discussion and they usually have very little to to with how laws work.

But you can still recover the moved file from your hard drive as long as the directory entry and disk space have not yet been overwritten.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But you can still recover the moved file from your hard drive as long as the directory entry and disk space have not yet been overwritten.

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you're guilty of actually doing it.

People in this discussion keep looking for loopholes that would make it possible to violate copyright by selling/lending eBooks. I'm sure they exist. However, that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate ways of doing it as well. In order for something to be done legally does not mean we have to eliminate all possible ways of doing it illegally.

The government doesn't have to ban all xerox machines in order for it to be legal to sell a pBook. There's no automatic assumption that every pBook in a used bookstore has been photocopied by it's previous owner. Could they have... sure. If they did, then they're guilty. That doesn't mean that it's illegal to sell a used book.

Yes, selling someone an eBook and then recovering the file from disk after you've moved/deleted it would probably be copyright infringement. Just don't do that.

I think some people on here WANT it to be illegal, so they keep twisting the scope of the discussion in order to incorporate illegal elements into the topic that don't need to be there. There are many things that you could do when selling an eBook that would violate copyright. Just don't do them.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

So what?

Every time you read an eBook you're creating a copy in memory. OMG, we're all pirates!

Not me. My memory copy is in RAM. I never actually write to BRAIN.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you're guilty of actually doing it.

People in this discussion keep looking for loopholes that would make it possible to violate copyright by selling/lending eBooks. I'm sure they exist. However, that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate ways of doing it as well. In order for something to be done legally does not mean we have to eliminate all possible ways of doing it illegally.

No, it's much more down to the fact that, whereas with a pBook, you have to consciously make a copy of it if you wish to have one (eg by scanning it or photocopying it), with an eBook multiple copies automatically exist as a part of the normal mechanism of use, and the typical computer user probably doesn't have the knowledge to eradicate all those copies.

How much would the law actually require you to do in terms of "deleting" your book if you wanted to give it someone else or sell it? Flush your web cache? Physically destroy any backup DVDs you may have made? Use a secure deletion tool to overwrite it on the physical disk? I don't know the answer to those questions - do you?

[HansTWN]

This old horse has really been beaten to death more than 10 times by now! Suppose we ask Amazon and similar entities in each country to make a test case in court? Any volunteer victims?

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, it's much more down to the fact that, whereas with a pBook, you have to consciously make a copy of it if you wish to have one (eg by scanning it or photocopying it), with an eBook multiple copies automatically exist as a part of the normal mechanism of use, and the typical computer user probably doesn't have the knowledge to eradicate all those copies.

Where did "the typical computer user" come from allofasudden?
That same user also won't be able to find it again, so what's your point? If you're not pulling him out of your hat for argumentative purposes, this hypothetical person is irrelevant to the discussion. "law breakage" already is a circumscribed deviant position, so taking it as the "standard case" is rude towards everyone.

How much would the law actually require you to do in terms of "deleting" your book if you wanted to give it someone else or sell it? Flush your web cache? Physically destroy any backup DVDs you may have made? Use a secure deletion tool to overwrite it on the physical disk?

Red herring. As long as the law doesn't decide this, I think what applies is what category "books" are sold under. If that category is "(p)books", then those rules apply. If not, then (imo) either no laws apply, or some catchall law applies, with little direct relevance to books.

I don't know the answer to those questions - do you?

You seem to be implying that you do, and that the answer is "no", and that the other is 'very much mistaken' in his/her conviction that he/she knows otherwise. Is it really necessary to obfuscate your position by letting everything hang on "perfect knowledge of the law", and by implication forbidding anyone who "doesn't" from speaking on the topic with any sort of voice? (except you, of course, who is[are?] reminding us of that)


That said, I doubt very many people would be buying books (from companies like Amazon) if they were reminded at every point that they were only leasing a book. As it stands, the button on the amazon store still says "buy", not "lease". As such, they are misleading the customers, in a relevant manner.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

Red herring. As long as the law doesn't decide this, I think what applies is what category "books" are sold under. If that category is "(p)books", then those rules apply. If not, then (imo) either no laws apply, or some catchall law applies, with little direct relevance to books.

No, it's most certainly not a "red herring", as you call it. Copyright law is all about the making of copies (by definition!), and if the ability to re-sell an ebook is dependent upon there being no other copies of that ebook held by the seller, it is very pertinent to ask to what lengths the seller has to go to in order to ensure that this is the case. I do not know what the answer to that question is.