eBook piracy, how common is it?

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Good Old Neon

It sounds to me like we’re getting hung up on a.) semantics

It's a lot more than just semantics. There are significant differences in the effects and reasons for the level of punishment associated with the two. Theft and copyright infringement have nothing to do with each other. There's a reason that real theft is a much more serious crime than copyright infringement, and there are also reasons why certain people want you to confuse the two.

[Lanik42]

Originally Posted by Good Old Neon

It sounds to me like we’re getting hung up on a.) semantics, and b.) the fact that the words stealing and theft were coined and defined before folks could even conceive of electronic distribution, file sharing, etc. I don’t care if we call it Shirley, the bottom-line is, you’re taking, for free, something that has a real monetary value.

Something only has monetary value when someone (a buyer) places value upon it, by purchasing. A seller can say something has a particular value, but unless buyers agree (and thus give it value), it is really worth nothing to the seller.

In addition, when dealing with things that do not detract in value when copied, such as mp3s and ebooks, we enter a new realm, which is of course widely debated both here and across the world.

I'm not trying to promote "piracy" - just trying to clarify the matter at hand. Though I have no problem telling you I will download "shared" books if not available otherwise - for instance, Roger Zelazny is one of my favorite authors. I have purchased a large number of his pBooks, but ebooks have been really hard to find... unless I obtain them from other means. And don't worry about the author not getting his cut... he''s gone

[Good Old Neon]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Like the book you loan from a friend? Or when you sing Happy Birthday to a child without written consent from the copyright owner? Or you listen to a song on the radio and don't purchase, immediately, the track from Itunes?

Radio is a poor example for obvious reasons – one of which, artists are, even if indirectly, compensated for radio broadcasts.

Reading a book or singing a song, aloud, is, to my knowledge – perfectly legal.

Accessing a site such as Limewire to circumvent paying for a book or a song or a movie that is otherwise only available commercially is what it is – theft.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Good Old Neon

Radio is a poor example for obvious reasons – one of which, artists are, even if indirectly, compensated for radio broadcasts.

Reading a book or singing a song, aloud, is, to my knowledge – perfectly legal.

Accessing a site such as Limewire to circumvent paying for a book or a song or a movie that is otherwise only available commercially is what it is – theft.

No it's not stealing. You can keep repeating that nonsense until the end of time, but it doesn't apply. It's no more stealing than an apple is the Eiffel tower. And if you want to sing Happy Birthday in public you better get your wallet out because it's copyrighted, and they enforce that crap.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Stringer

Sequence Publishing's definition goes like this:

I'm sure they would define copyright infringement as "rape" and "murder" if they thought they could get away with it. How a publishing company defines the term "theft" has no relevance. Unfortunately, it's examples like that which cause all of the confusion in the first place, which is exactly what companies like Sequence Publishing want.

[Penforhire]

I know we need to not discuss piracy techniques here, so I won't give details, but all of you who are looking at bit-torrents as a measure of piracy are looking in the wrong place. That is where video piracy is big but not even a flea on the back of the book market.

IRC channel DCC transfers are the volume of book piracy today. Available titles absolutely dwarf torrent listings. I suspect the reason is the much smaller size of book files compared to video and music. I don't know how to measure those DCC transfers but someone else here might?

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

I know we need to not discuss piracy techniques here, so I won't give details, but all of you who are looking at bit-torrents as a measure of piracy are looking in the wrong place. That is where video piracy is big but not even a flea on the back of the book market.

IRC channel DCC transfers are the volume of book piracy today. Available titles absolutely dwarf torrent listings. I suspect the reason is the much smaller size of book files compared to video and music. I don't know how to measure those DCC transfers but someone else here might?

Forgot about those channels, along with Usenet where a lot of it started out. I'm not sure how you'd measure the IRC transfers, there used to be some sites around that you could see how many people had downloaded the file, but I can't think of them off the top of my head. I chose BT because of its ubiquitous nature and popularity, mainly as a gauge of how popular ebooks were to the average P2P user.

I'll have to look into IRC and see what I can find out.

[Lanik42]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

I know we need to not discuss piracy techniques here, so I won't give details, but all of you who are looking at bit-torrents as a measure of piracy are looking in the wrong place. That is where video piracy is big but not even a flea on the back of the book market.

IRC channel DCC transfers are the volume of book piracy today. Available titles absolutely dwarf torrent listings. I suspect the reason is the much smaller size of book files compared to video and music. I don't know how to measure those DCC transfers but someone else here might?

I'm sure one of the reasons IRC (and usenet) are often used for file sharing is because its far harder to track down and quantify than torrents. DCC shares would only be tracked by the one sharing, and only then if they so chose. usenet, to my knowledge, doesn't track at all, though some ISPs and possibly other providers may.

[Good Old Neon]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

It's a lot more than just semantics. There are significant differences in the effects and reasons for the level of punishment associated with the two. Theft and copyright infringement have nothing to do with each other. There's a reason that real theft is a much more serious crime than copyright infringement, and there are also reasons why certain people want you to confuse the two.

That works both ways. It appears to me as though defenders of filesharing would also like to blur the line and definition of “theft” for their own selfish purposes.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Good Old Neon

That works both ways. It appears to me as though defenders of filesharing would also like to blur the line and definition of “theft” for their own selfish purposes.

Afraid not, it doesn't work both ways. Theft is theft, copyright infringement is copyright infringement. They're two very different things.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

P.S. Where's that company now? We were acquired by a multi-billion-dollar hardware manufacturer, who promptly pitched the entire product line and re-assigned the engineers to work on other things. They effectively wasted many millions of dollars! Go figure.

And gcc is still here. If you had had another business model and contributed your superior stuff to gcc then the world would have been a better place...

[Stringer]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

I'm sure they would define copyright infringement as "rape" and "murder" if they thought they could get away with it. How a publishing company defines the term "theft" has no relevance. Unfortunately, it's examples like that which cause all of the confusion in the first place, which is exactly what companies like Sequence Publishing want.

You did understand that the name was for a dictionary's publisher, not a definition used in a EULA or something? I think it is a great free dictionary, one that is installable locally and available with shortcut-key. I seriously doubt they would have any hidden agenda with that definition.
http://www.sequencepublishing.com/thesage.html

[kwjones]

Originally Posted by sirbruce

Thirdly, in some cases there are books which simply aren't available in ebook form but are in other forms. Forms that I have already paid for. Thus, I am just "format-shifting" to ebook form, and I don't feel like I'm doing anything immoral. I think the rights to distribution have to have some limits.

I think this is where it becomes a "gray" area for me and comes down to two things, format and platform.

When it comes to audio/video I don't neccessarily have a problem with format shifting as long as you own it in another format. Say you have a cassette from the 80's. You physcially own it; you've listened to it so much that it's starting to wear out. You'd really like to have it on CD so you don't destroy it, and you'd like to have some of those songs on your MP3 player. You could connect the cassette player to your PC and use some software to record the tape to your hard drive and listen to the songs on your MP3 player, or if you're lazy like me, you hop on a P2P and try to find the song and download it. I rip CDs that I own to MP3 with no legal problems at all, but I also don't share them. Maybe I should for people like me, looking for an MP3 of a song they already have on cassette. Audio and video formats are readily and easily converted to another platform/format.

The main problem is with the platforms themselves. When you bought a cassette tape back in the 80's, it would play on ANY cassette player. When you buy an audio CD it works in any CD player...home stereo, computer, car...it doesn't matter. The platforms for those types of media are industry standard. As technology advanced, some companies saw that they can lock consumers into their brand by making the products non-compatible with any other devices so digital media gets released on specific platforms. Pbooks don't readily lend themselves to platform or format shifting, and I think that's the difference for me. Got an Xbox and a Playstation? You have to buy games for the platform you want to play the game on.

So now we have ebooks. There isn't a platform or format standard. So you have to buy ebooks that are formated for your specific platform, or you can break local laws by stripping the DRM to convert it into a format for your platform. Or, you can download pirated books.

I would like to see ebooks treated like audio or video formats. Actually, I'd like publishers to distribute ebooks on CDs that include multiple formats supoorted by a majority of platforms. Seriously, how much space does an ebook take up? You could easily put an ebook in every current format on a single CD. Publishers could even offer multiple editions of a book on the same disc/s. Can you imagine getting ebooks when you buy an audio book, or getting the audio format when you buy the ebook? Disney is already including a digital copy and regular DVD copy when you buy one of their Blu-Ray movies. Disney is starting to get it. We have multiple platforms and don't want to buy indvidual formats for each platform, so they offer us format/platform choices with a single purchase. It's called added value.

Want the latest book by your favorite author? No problem, buy the CD it doesn't matter if you have a Kindle, Sony, or iPhone every major format is included on a single disc. Say you decide you really don't like your Sony reader, so you get rid of it and buy a Kindle (if you're in the US). Did you have to buy those books all over again? Nope, the Kindle format is on the ebook CD you bought. The legality of stripping DRM from an ebook to convert it into another format to work on your platform would be a non-issue.

[Good Old Neon]

Originally Posted by Lanik42

Something only has monetary value when someone (a buyer) places value upon it, by purchasing. A seller can say something has a particular value, but unless buyers agree (and thus give it value), it is really worth nothing to the seller.

In addition, when dealing with things that do not detract in value when copied, such as mp3s and ebooks, we enter a new realm, which is of course widely debated both here and across the world.

I'm not trying to promote "piracy" - just trying to clarify the matter at hand. Though I have no problem telling you I will download "shared" books if not available otherwise - for instance, Roger Zelazny is one of my favorite authors. I have purchased a large number of his pBooks, but ebooks have been really hard to find... unless I obtain them from other means. And don't worry about the author not getting his cut... he''s gone

I agree with this to the extent that the material in question is not commercially available. However, when and if it is, and rather than purchase a legitimate copy, an individual seeks out and downloads a file from a filesharing site, well, again, it is, in essence, stealing.

The music industry was pretty much brought to its knees as a result of filesharing, to suggest that it is just some minor offense that does not equal stealing, seems, to me, disingenuous.

As you don’t own the copy-written material, “sharing” is also a bogus term – a euphemism employed to soften what amounts, essentially, to stealing.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by kwjones

I think this is where it becomes a "gray" area for me and comes down to two things, format and platform.

When it comes to audio/video I don't neccessarily have a problem with format shifting as long as you own it in another format. Say you have a cassette from the 80's. You physcially own it; you've listened to it so much that it's starting to wear out. You'd really like to have it on CD so you don't destroy it, and you'd like to have some of those songs on your MP3 player. You could connect the cassette player to your PC and use some software to record the tape to your hard drive and listen to the songs on your MP3 player, or if you're lazy like me, you hop on a P2P and try to find the song and download it. I rip CDs that I own to MP3 with no legal problems at all, but I also don't share them. Audio and video formats are readily and easily converted to another platform/format.

The main problem is with the platforms themselves. When you bought a cassette tape back in the 80's, it would play on ANY cassette player. When you buy an audio CD it works in any CD player...home stereo, computer, car...it doesn't matter. The platforms for those types of media are industry standard. As technology advanced, some companies saw that they can lock consumers into their brand by making the products non-compatible with any other devices so digital media gets released on specific platforms. Pbooks don't readily lend themselves to platform or format shifting, and I think that's the difference for me. Got an Xbox and a Playstation? You have to buy games for the platform you want to play the game on.

So now we have ebooks. There isn't a platform or format standard. So you have to buy ebooks that are formated for your specific platform, or you can break local laws by stripping the DRM to convert it into a format for your platform. Or, you can download pirated books.

I would like to see ebooks treated like audio or video formats. Actually, I'd like publishers to distribute ebooks on CDs that include multiple formats supoorted by a majority of platforms. Seriously, how much space does an ebook take up? You could easily put an ebook in every current format on a single CD. Publishers could even offer multiple editions of a book on the same disc/s. Can you imagine getting ebooks when you buy an audio book, or getting the audio format when you buy the ebook? Disney is already including a digital copy and regular DVD copy when you buy one of their Blu-Ray movies. Disney is starting to get it. We have multiple platforms and don't want to buy indvidual formats for each platform, so they offer us format/platform choices with a single purchase. It's called added value.

Want the latest book by your favorite author? No problem, buy the CD it doesn't matter if you have a Kindle, Sony, or iPhone every major format is included on a single disc. Say you decide you really don't like your Sony reader, so you get rid of it and buy a Kindle (if you're in the US). Did you have to buy those books all over again? Nope, the Kindle format is on the ebook CD you bought. The legality of stripping DRM from an ebook to convert it into another format to work on your platform would be a non-issue.

We already have a standard, it's called ePub, its just 'some' greedy corps don't want to adopt that standard. And I can't believe you'd jump on a p2p program, download a song, then not share your own. That goes against what p2p is meant for. You're leeching which is the cardinal sin of all p2p. The movement is about sharing, about social interaction with peers, recommendations and growing culture, not about getting what you can and then walking away.

And a CD is as bad an idea as anything else. I can't wait until we get rid of the nasty physical media rubbish and go fully downloadable. Who wants hundreds of coasters sitting around when they can have it all on a hard drive or 2.