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Old 06-12-2021, 09:38 AM   #136
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Summing up the positions:

Side A: Theft is OK, especially if it's just a little bit. Other people steal too, and even bigger stuff sometimes, so that justifies this. I don't mind people stealing from me, so you shouldn't mind them stealing from you. By condoning this theft, I am helping others for the greater good.

Side B: Theft is wrong.

Side A and Side B will never agree.
Your first problem is designating it as 'theft'.

A and B won't agree on anything if they don't agree on that.
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Old 06-12-2021, 09:57 AM   #137
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Yes I did mention ads. You seemed very concerned for all these people running running out of data, and yet you seem to not care about how much data is "wasted" on ads.

And has been mentioned, what about Find My? Find My is most likely using cell data, which is usually much more limited than Wifi data?

Just to recap, your data usage concern:

Think about those families that have a capped cell phone data plan, what about all the cell phone data that Find My uses? Think of the children!
I'm mostly concerned about Amazon taking what's not theirs without asking. Change Sidewalk to opt-in instead of opt-out and I don't care what they do — as I'll never own one of these intrusive devices. Meanwhile don't try putting words into my mouth. I don't appreciate it.

As for my data cap concern that basically ended in about the first couple pages of this thread when I found out there was a cap. Have I brought it up since? Nope.
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Old 06-12-2021, 10:00 AM   #138
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Your first problem is designating it as 'theft'.

A and B won't agree on anything if they don't agree on that.
To take someone's property (any property) without asking, is theft. If Amazon wants their Sidewalk mesh, ASK their users for permission to use their devices and bandwidth. Simple concept. Why is everyone so willing to defend corporate behavior that they would not tolerate from an individual?
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Old 06-12-2021, 10:12 AM   #139
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Turn the option off. Then no one is "stealing" anything. Lock your car, lock your house, lock down your devices.
Some folks won't know. The solution, force Amazon to ASK their customers to turn it on. Why should the users bear the responsibility of opting out?

Would you welcome a pilferer into your house who regularly stole change from your piggy bank even if he agreed not to come into your house if you asked him not to? Suppose you didn't know he was coming into your house? Would it okay then, after all he's not stealing much, just a little change, maybe scoping out your house to tell his burglar friends what you have — but, for now, he's promised not to tell them. What's the problem?

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If you had no option, it would be different. But you do. Don't like Amazon's devices, don't buy them. Don't like some of the options/settings? Change it.
If Amazon asked first there would be no problem. They know damned well a lot of people won't know how to turn it off, or will forget about it and their mesh will slip in through the cracks, whether it's wanted or not. Amazon is getting sleazier by the minute.
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Old 06-12-2021, 10:22 AM   #140
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Your first problem is designating it as 'theft'.
That illustrates my point perfectly. In Side A's viewpoint, taking something from someone without asking is not theft. Thank you for providing such a timely example.
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Old 06-12-2021, 10:47 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by rcentros View Post
Some folks won't know. The solution, force Amazon to ASK their customers to turn it on. Why should the users bear the responsibility of opting out?

Would you welcome a pilferer into your house who regularly stole change from your piggy bank even if he agreed not to come into your house if you asked him not to? Suppose you didn't know he was coming into your house? Would it okay then, after all he's not stealing much, just a little change, maybe scoping out your house to tell his burglar friends what you have — but, for now, he's promised not to tell them. What's the problem?

If Amazon asked first there would be no problem. They know damned well a lot of people won't know how to turn it off, or will forget about it and their mesh will slip in through the cracks, whether it's wanted or not. Amazon is getting sleazier by the minute.
As much as people want to minimize the opt-out/opt-in issue, it's really the heart of the matter. The very fact that Amazon has made this opt-out leads many of us to suspect their motives. Despite the claim that "everyone" knows they can opt out, it's just not true--MR readers are hardly representative of larger society in their knowledge of tech devices. Amazon knows that people will be ignorant of or indifferent to Sidewalk--that's what Amazon is counting on.

With all the analogies that have been suggested, I don't believe anyone's mentioned the one that I immediately thought of--Vizio's secret data collection with its smart TVs, which resulted in a class action suit. Yeah, I know, Amazon says it's not collecting data, and Amazon is apparently being more transparent than Vizio was. Still, taking bandwidth seems more intrusive than tracking data. I wonder if there will be a class action suit down the road.
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Old 06-12-2021, 11:09 AM   #142
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What if you've got ancient DSL service and you know you're neighbor has 1 GB cable connection and an Echo. Can you unplug your DSL modem and stream on your neighbor's service?

What if you didn't pay your bill and don't have any Internet service at all, but you have a registered Echo and your neighbor has an Echo? After all, your "service" is technically "down," right?

And what about a family trying to get along on capped Internet service (like that provided by AT&T) who all stream different services and are constantly on the edge of overcharges? Is Amazon responsible for paying those?

Fortunately I'll never have to find out, since I'll never have an Echo.
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Originally Posted by rcentros View Post
I'm mostly concerned about Amazon taking what's not theirs without asking. Change Sidewalk to opt-in instead of opt-out and I don't care what they do — as I'll never own one of these intrusive devices. Meanwhile don't try putting words into my mouth. I don't appreciate it.

As for my data cap concern that basically ended in about the first couple pages of this thread when I found out there was a cap. Have I brought it up since? Nope.
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That illustrates my point perfectly. In Side A's viewpoint, taking something from someone without asking is not theft. Thank you for providing such a timely example.
Haertig, are you on Side A or side B?
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Old 06-12-2021, 11:10 AM   #143
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And I tend to think, at least in the U.S., that society doesn't consider what Amazon is doing is "theft".
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Old 06-12-2021, 11:18 AM   #144
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I just heard another theory about Amazon Sidewalk: Amazon is implementing it now so in the future it will be there for their drone deliveries.
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Old 06-12-2021, 11:46 AM   #145
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I just heard another theory about Amazon Sidewalk: Amazon is implementing it now so in the future it will be there for their drone deliveries.
I also heard that, but not with any credible explanation of what use Sidewalk would be in that situation. Sidewalk provides low power, low bandwidth communication with no guarantee of availability. That is fine for things like tag tracking. But delivery drones will be high power devices and will certainly have GPS and cameras that require fast and reliable data communication. That does not look like a good fit to me.
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Old 06-12-2021, 11:58 AM   #146
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Haertig, are you on Side A or side B?
That is not obvious?
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Old 06-12-2021, 12:57 PM   #147
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I think the difference between using your own iPhone for tracking down you dog and using someone else's iPhone for (without obtaining their permission first) is quite a bit different.
...but that's exactly what Apple does. It uses every iPhone in the world to find the things with Airtags attached. This is from the Airtag web page:
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How does it work?

Your AirTag sends out a secure Bluetooth signal that can be detected by nearby devices in the Find My network. These devices send the location of your AirTag to iCloud — then you can go to the Find My app and see it on a map. The whole process is anonymous and encrypted to protect your privacy. And itʼs efficient, so thereʼs no need to worry about battery life or data usage.
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Old 06-12-2021, 01:07 PM   #148
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That is not obvious?
I'm not sure. There were some questions about ads, and some people see a similarity to sidewalk, and you seemed to be OK with ads. So I'm not sure.
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Old 06-12-2021, 03:44 PM   #149
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I'm not sure. There were some questions about ads, and some people see a similarity to sidewalk, and you seemed to be OK with ads. So I'm not sure.
I hate ads - I do everything I can to subvert them.

But ads are not the same as Sidewalk. Why some people have attempted to draw this equivalency, I don't understand.
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Old 06-12-2021, 04:17 PM   #150
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