Page Numbers, Percentage, or nothing at all

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

It’s nice that you want this but again ebooks are different media, and sorry but it does matter. There hasn’t been a common standard. Kindle did it one way, Nook did it another way, Kobo another, ADE yet another and I’m sure the list goes on. Literally none of them were the same. As to your correlates between ebooks and physical books again they are different media just because you wish it wasn’t so doesn’t change the fact that they are and that it has ramifications which do matter. A page has never and likely will never exist in an ebook. Just as a page doesn’t exist in an audiobook.

There is a standard. It's ADE page numbers. It's others that have gone off script. And nook does use ADE age numbers. Kobo can use ADE page numbers. ADE created a standard that's not been improved upon since.

Then use ePub and turn on ADE. Your Kobo still reads them and the ADE page number still exists. Though even Adobe doesn’t seem to like it.

How does Adobe not like it?

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by rcentros

Yeah, the old standard has "drastic variations," but the new standard (where I illustrated that my 2744 page book could be go all the way from about 1,500 pages to 82,000 (and some) pages) is a new "uniform" standard. Uh, huh.

I'm sorry, but this is getting too silly to take seriously.

Cough cough kettle please stop calling me black, I’ve demonstrated with the actual number of font size changes the shift in pages. I can also get my kobo to have text smaller than I can read it or so large a few words take up the screen.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

pBooks could have use a different system where one physical page (both sides) or how many page turns was counted as 1 page. So how are page numbers for pBooks any less arbitrary? Heck, some pBooks do not start with page 1 on the first page. Page 1 can start on the first page of chapter 1. That makes some pBooks less accurate.

Both pBook and ADE page numbers are based on a system. The thing is, because eBooks are in a different container, they need a different system. The system that works and was the first one created was ADE page numbers.

Do you have a better system for page numbers for an eBook?

You’re so close to getting it here. So very close.

All page numbers are arbitrary. However they were the better system to use for physical books since trying to measure a physical book like we did a scroll would be frustrating and trying to do it by a word count would leave the reader insane.

Ebooks do not suffer the same limitations as physical books. A computer does most of the work now. And this is a game changer.

You say you want precise information for where you are in a book. My reply is drop pages entirely from ebooks we’ve demonstrated how ADE is limited throughout this thread I’m not going to repeat it in every reply. Instead I’ll suggest a system that is even more precise it will tell you exactly where you are in an ebook and every ebook format can use it and it’s consistent between them all. Implement a word count system.

Stop before you say ‘go to word x of y’ right now you can’t. But only because the controls haven’t been implemented.

[John F]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

You’re so close to getting it here. So very close.

All page numbers are arbitrary. However they were the better system to use for physical books since trying to measure a physical book like we did a scroll would be frustrating and trying to do it by a word count would leave the reader insane.

Ebooks do not suffer the same limitations as physical books. A computer does most of the work now. And this is a game changer.

You say you want precise information for where you are in a book. My reply is drop pages entirely from ebooks we’ve demonstrated how ADE is limited throughout this thread I’m not going to repeat it in every reply. Instead I’ll suggest a system that is even more precise it will tell you exactly where you are in an ebook and every ebook format can use it and it’s consistent between them all. Implement a word count system.

Stop before you say ‘go to word x of y’ right now you can’t. But only because the controls haven’t been implemented.

What about an ebook with illustrations (the word count method)?

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by John F

What about an ebook with illustrations (the word count method)?

Unless there are a significant amount of illustrations without any descriptive text it’d still get you to where you were. Even a single word per illustration would achieve this since you’d be homing in to the word.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by rcentros

As I mentioned in my post, I want my eBooks to correlate (relatively) to my printed books. Never any mention of my printing any of my eBooks.

You could shrink the font down until the page numbers correlate.

Changing the font size makes for more pages, just like it would for physical books. Here's something for you: Shelter by Robin Merrill (I've never heard of it either, just needed a large print book for comparison):

Paperback: 193 pages
Large print: 307 pages
Kobo: 189 pages

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by rcentros

Except page counts have been the standard since printed books were printed and people know the relative length of a 500 page book when compared to a 200 page book (for example).

Nope. Take a look at one of the oldest and certainly the most well-known printed books in history: The Gutenberg Bible. There are several different versions of it with different numbers of lines per page thus different page counts.

The publishing standard is word counts.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

So how do you go to word 18,291n the book?

For example by printing the word count of the first word of each paragraph in the margins. It's less exact than what you could get with an ebook but it's close enough. Maybe there's a better way but that's UI/UX rather than system.

pBooks use a page number system that's inconsistent between different physical versions. ADE uses a page number system that consistent between different devices/settings. ADE page number are not faux. You've got that 100% wrong.

If I cannot use faux pages in print books then they're not consistent between different devices/settings. They are only consistent between some devices.

ADE pages are fake pages. Faux = fake. ADE faux pages. 100% correct.

[rashkae]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

There is a standard. It's ADE page numbers. It's others that have gone off script.

*cough*.. I don't even.... I mean, I know I should just ignore, but the righteous indignation just builds and builds, and blood pressure meds get expensive.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by rashkae

*cough*.. I don't even.... I mean, I know I should just ignore, but the righteous indignation just builds and builds, and blood pressure meds get expensive.

Yeah. I mean Adobe themselves admit that RMSDK doesn't try to be accurate. Here's a fun little reference about it that I just dug up.

https://github.com/readium/readium-j...mment-52924911

So yeah, this isn't a new problem. Also, when said staffer wrote, "we just faked the number of pages"? Faux pages is 100% correct.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ratinox

For example by printing the word count of the first word of each paragraph in the margins. It's less exact than what you could get with an ebook but it's close enough. Maybe there's a better way but that's UI/UX rather than system.

It was bad enough when ADE had page numbers on the side. Word count would be just as annoying and maybe more so given larger numbers.

If I cannot use faux pages in print books then they're not consistent between different devices/settings. They are only consistent between some devices.

ADE pages are fake pages. Faux = fake. ADE faux pages. 100% correct./QUOTE]

ADE page numbers are not faux. They are the first page number system that actually works and it's still on the go now. It's the device makers that choose not to use RMSDK to read ePub that are at fault for not sticking witht he standard.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ratinox

Yeah. I mean Adobe themselves admit that RMSDK doesn't try to be accurate. Here's a fun little reference about it that I just dug up.

https://github.com/readium/readium-j...mment-52924911

So yeah, this isn't a new problem. Also, when said staffer wrote, "we just faked the number of pages"? Faux pages is 100% correct.

Laying out all the pages doesn't work. All that does is give you 1 screen = 1 page. That's not giving you real page numbers. That's the definition of faux page numbers for eBooks.

[4691mls]

Here's my take on some of the main views expressed in this thread:

1. Page numbers in electronic books are not real and therefore we don't need them.
Well, people who don't think page numbers are useful can just turn them off.

2. Page numbers may not be "real" but at least ADE numbers were consistent. ADE page counts for books were reasonably close to page counts for paper books (not some huge screen count number.) You would also know approximately how long one ebook was compared to another. And you could find the same page in the same ebook on another device.

3. Word count would be a more accurate method for ebooks. True, but until it happens I would rather keep the ADE numbers going.

3. People who want ADE numbers should read epubs instead of kepubs.
Well, I got my Kobo reader largely because I can obtain library books on it when I am away from home. For example, I receive an email notification on my phone that a book I've had on hold for weeks or months has finally become available. I can use the Overdrive app on my phone to check it out, then sync my Kobo reader to get a copy. But I can't choose to get an epub vs a kepub.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

Here's my take on some of the main views expressed in this thread:

3. People who want ADE numbers should read epubs instead of kepubs.
Well, I got my Kobo reader largely because I can obtain library books on it when I am away from home. For example, I receive an email notification on my phone that a book I've had on hold for weeks or months has finally become available. I can use the Overdrive app on my phone to check it out, then sync my Kobo reader to get a copy. But I can't choose to get an epub vs a kepub.

kepub never used ADE, even on the system that was in place in 4.15 and earlier, they used a different system. So they were never getting ADE that way to begin with. Semantics yes, since the previous system used static page numbers rather than the dynamic system now in place, but terminology does matter here. Especially since we have Jon trying to declare ADE is the gold standard by which everything should be measured despite the evidence from Adobe themselves that it's just made up junk.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Laying out all the pages doesn't work. All that does is give you 1 screen = 1 page. That's not giving you real page numbers. That's the definition of faux page numbers for eBooks.

Jon, what's it going to take to get it through to you that ADE is a fake page number?

Also I am still waiting for you to hold a page out in an ebook using any system, though preferably your vaunted ADE. Added bonus challenge pull the same "length" "page" from another book with illustrations.