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#136 | |
eBook Enthusiast
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#137 |
Grand Sorcerer
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Thank you. But there is no danger of me "falling back." Mainly because I don't confuse tribalism with systemic racism. "My tribe is better than your tribe" is a far cry from "My tribe doesn't like the color of your skin, so we're going to subjugate your tribe and oppress you any way we can for several hundred years."
Last edited by DiapDealer; 02-05-2018 at 12:04 PM. |
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#138 | ||
Gentleman and scholar
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#139 | |
Gentleman and scholar
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#140 |
Grand Sorcerer
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Possibly. But then why should I assume that "that's just how it was" equals "that's just how it was, and it was a terrible, terrible thing" ? Say what you (rhet) mean. To me, it's quite fair to assume that a brusque one-liner used in defense of why someone showed racist tendencies implies they're offering up excuses to justify/mitigate said behavior. There is no need to attempt to do so.
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#141 | |
Bibliophagist
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#142 | |
Grand Sorcerer
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Part of the problem is that I don't simply understand why such a thing needs to be said at all. What is gained by saying racism was "normal" or acceptable back then? It was neither. It was merely common. The answer to "was Lovecraft a racist" is "yes." Not "yes, but...". |
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#143 | |
Grand Sorcerer
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By what standards? Today's? For many of those folks, the views presented in the stories were the mainstream, *expected*, views of their time. To present views acceptable to today's standards would've been deemed unrealistic by the establishment and the audience. Expecting otherwise would be the equivalent of expecting Jules Verne to write stories about relativity or quantum mechanics or Isaac Asimov's LUCKY STARR books to feature a rotating Mercury with a day and night cycle. Again: if you can't accept a book on its own terms and within the constraints of its time period then you probably should move on. And that applies to modern period pieces as well as classics. If I run into a period piece trying to shoehorn modern values where they would be anachronistic (and it's not a timeshift story)I'm the one turning up my nose and walking away in disgust. ![]() Last edited by fjtorres; 02-05-2018 at 12:40 PM. |
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#144 |
Wizard
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Yes. Life is too short to waste on foulness. If I find that a book is turning foul, I'll back out of it, just as I would back out of a flooded septic field if I happened to step into one. All the grand arguments aside, I only have so much time to read and I don't want to waste it.
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#145 | |
Bibliophagist
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I do have to ask what is your basis for claiming that racism was not "normal" or acceptable by the common person at that time? Because it is not normal or acceptable today? Or because you believe it should not have been normal or acceptable at any point in history. Common -- familiar, widespread, general, ordinary. |
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#146 | |
Wizard
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Yes, I use the simile deliberately: Ancient Greek society was racist, sexist, practiced slavery and institutionalised paederasty and yet is considered to be the first flowering of Western civilisation. So because ancient writers by and large do not condemn what we today consider to be beyond the pale, we should now condemn everything about those writers? |
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#147 | |
Grand Sorcerer
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#148 |
Grand Sorcerer
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And yet that must be exactly what has happened time and again throughout history. Unless you're actually suggesting that there wasn't a single Ancient Greek who opposed slavery, sexism, racism, and institutionalized paederasty? I hear the Stoics were actually pretty down on slavery.
Last edited by DiapDealer; 02-05-2018 at 02:10 PM. |
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#149 | |
eBook Enthusiast
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You keep saying that no person of conscience did this or that, but have provided no evidence to support such an assertion. I've suggested to you as a counter-example that historically, prevalent attitudes of racial superiority were certainly not seen as being incompatible with acting with a good conscience. Dickens' lampooning of such attitudes in the form of the character of Mrs Jellyby is based on real "social reformers" of the day who absolutely considered it their Christian duty to "civilise" the inferior people of Africa. Racist? Yes. Motivated by a genuine desire to help people? Also yes. |
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#150 | ||
Grand Sorcerer
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Last edited by DiapDealer; 02-05-2018 at 02:35 PM. |
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Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Free (Kindle DRM-free) An Older Man by Wayne Hoffman [LGBT Literary/Men's Fiction] | ATDrake | Deals and Resources (No Self-Promotion or Affiliate Links) | 0 | 05-16-2016 05:08 PM |