Who will fill the gap if B&N collapses

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by darryl

This is one part of the definiation from Merriam Webster (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/commodity)



I presume this is the part of the definition to which you refer. It seems to me that if books were not a commodity before the Kindle and self-publishing (and they were even then) they certainly are now. Isn't this what the large publishers feared and expressed through Authors United with all that rubbish about devaluing books. They thought by keeping supply limited and prices high books would avoid books becoming a commodity in this sense. Of course, as you suggest, the answer is not black and white. But in my view books were a commodity even then and are even more so now. In fact, with the advent of self-publishing, classically so. And the attempts of Big Publishing to differentiate their own products on the basis of quality have so far been a dismal failure.

Neither cars nor books are commodities.
Food is a commodity. Oil is a commodity.
Cars and books can be luxuries.

This discussion is fun.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Neither cars nor books are commodities.
Food is a commodity. Oil is a commodity.
Cars and books can be luxuries.

This discussion is fun.

Indeed it is. You are using yet another definition of commodity. The more the merrier!

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by darryl

Indeed it is. You are using yet another definition of commodity. The more the merrier!

To an extent, I think that we are both bring different assumptions to this discussion. Let me give it one more shot, then we just agree to disagree.

My definition of a commodity is something where there is no perceived difference between two items in the same group. A bushel of corn from Kansas is the same as a bushel of corn from Canada. If you were to say that _some readers_ perceive books as a commodity, then I would agree with you, though I think that percentage of the reader population is small. There are certain genres where it's more common than others - fanfic (I think that some Harry Potter fanfic types see no real difference between JK Rowlings and G. Norman Lippert, both write in the same universe), shared universes (many see no real difference in the various writers in the Star Wars universe).

But just because a group of readers may perceive it that way, does not make it so. It only becomes a commodity when the majority of the market perceives it as a commodity. Memory chips is very much a commodity. TV's and DVD's have become a commodity, but it was not always so. At one time Sony commanded quite a premium because of the perceived quality advantage. Sony allowed their product to become a commodity. Most would consider coffee to be a commodity, and while I agree that normal super market coffee is a commodity, I would also say that I'm a bit of a coffee snob and I can tell a huge difference in quality in the coffees that I buy verses what I could by in the grocery store, and I'm more than happy to pay the difference in price.

In general, I think that most readers don't perceive books as a commodity. People wanted to read the latest Harry Potter book, and no other book was an acceptable substitute. Same for authors like Dan Brown and Stephen King. That's why they sell millions of copies of their books, while other authors think they are doing great when they sell 30 thousand. I do think there are certain things that can change that perception, but I don't think we are there by a long shot.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by darryl

...

I will repeat myself by saying that it is not the definition of sluxh pile where we disagree. It is that you seem to regard the whole of Indie Published books as a giant slush pile waiting to be combed over by "real" publishers for that rare crumb of quality which they can then publish properly.
....

If that is what you how I regard indies, then either I'm not doing a good job of explaining myself or you are projecting something that isn't there.

All books start in a giant slush pile. Most people apply certain filters to that slush pile. My primary filter is author. I have a list of authors that I like and I will at least take a look at any book they write. Many authors are on the buy any book they write list, at least until I start running into books that I don't like. At one time I bought every Baen book that came out. I can't think of any other publisher that I can say that about.

My point is that I thought that some people would come out with a curated books list. Apple does that with music and it's works pretty well for me. I said indie simply because I think that Indie authors are more willing to go for such a scheme to get the more widespread publicity, since the curator has to get paid somehow. Advertising isn't going to do it. I suppose that Amazon or some other book store might start having curated lists, much like Apple's music. I think that would be a valuable service.

Way back in the day, there was a best of the month SF newsletter that talked about the best new books that came out that month. I loved that thing and discovered a number of authors that way.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

To an extent, I think that we are both bring different assumptions to this discussion. Let me give it one more shot, then we just agree to disagree.

My definition of a commodity is something where there is no perceived difference between two items in the same group. A bushel of corn from Kansas is the same as a bushel of corn from Canada. If you were to say that _some readers_ perceive books as a commodity, then I would agree with you, though I think that percentage of the reader population is small. There are certain genres where it's more common than others - fanfic (I think that some Harry Potter fanfic types see no real difference between JK Rowlings and G. Norman Lippert, both write in the same universe), shared universes (many see no real difference in the various writers in the Star Wars universe).

But just because a group of readers may perceive it that way, does not make it so. It only becomes a commodity when the majority of the market perceives it as a commodity. Memory chips is very much a commodity. TV's and DVD's have become a commodity, but it was not always so. At one time Sony commanded quite a premium because of the perceived quality advantage. Sony allowed their product to become a commodity. Most would consider coffee to be a commodity, and while I agree that normal super market coffee is a commodity, I would also say that I'm a bit of a coffee snob and I can tell a huge difference in quality in the coffees that I buy verses what I could by in the grocery store, and I'm more than happy to pay the difference in price.

In general, I think that most readers don't perceive books as a commodity. People wanted to read the latest Harry Potter book, and no other book was an acceptable substitute. Same for authors like Dan Brown and Stephen King. That's why they sell millions of copies of their books, while other authors think they are doing great when they sell 30 thousand. I do think there are certain things that can change that perception, but I don't think we are there by a long shot.

Hey coffee lover, I have 2 or 4 words for you.
Big Lots / Odd Lots. They sometimes have good coffee cheap.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Hey coffee lover, I have 2 or 4 words for you.
Big Lots / Odd Lots. They sometimes have good coffee cheap.

I tend to be brand loyal. I've been buying from J. Martinez for almost 20 year. They buy coffee from specific estates. The guy who started the company, John Martinez was from Jamaica and had contacts all over the world. He died a number of years ago and his son runs the business now. But I'll keep your suggestion in mind if they ever go out of business.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I tend to be brand loyal. I've been buying from J. Martinez for almost 20 year. They buy coffee from specific estates. The guy who started the company, John Martinez was from Jamaica and had contacts all over the world. He died a number of years ago and his son runs the business now. But I'll keep your suggestion in mind if they ever go out of business.

I will have to look for their coffee. Thanks for the tip.

[crossi]

There was a magazine I subscribed to "Romantic times" which every month would print the books coming out the next month with a brief synopsis and rating. They reviewed hundreds of books each month. I chose most of my books from that magazine. Locus Magazine had similar reviews for SF books which I used to find new authors. Lots of opportunities for subscriptions that provide similar services. If there was a bunch of them you could pick ones that you found agreed with your tastes for the most part.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by crossi

There was a magazine I subscribed to "Romantic times" which every month would print the books coming out the next month with a brief synopsis and rating. They reviewed hundreds of books each month. I chose most of my books from that magazine. Locus Magazine had similar reviews for SF books which I used to find new authors. Lots of opportunities for subscriptions that provide similar services. If there was a bunch of them you could pick ones that you found agreed with your tastes for the most part.

Yep. This is where I really expected the internet to shine. I don't know why that sort of thing faded away. Could be they couldn't figure out how to monetize, or it could be that the old "to be published" lists were not being maintained or were no longer available. It definitely seems like an opportunity for someone.

[pwalker8]

ok, here is an example of what I mean by lack of discover-ability. There are two indie authors who I've been reading and really like, Marc Alan Edelheit and Duncan M Hamilton. Edelheit wrote the Stiger series and Hamilton wrote the Wolf of the North series. Both came out with new books, Edelheit on the 24th and Hamilton on Oct 2nd. I found both this week in passing. I'm in theory following both authors on Amazon and have bought all the books by both. One would think that Amazon might send me an email informing me that they had new books, but no. I had several pre-orders come out on Tuesday and bought several other books during the week, so Amazon at least had an opportunity to throw those books on my landing page. I'm even following Edelheit in authoralert. It seems like the only reliable way to find out if an author has anything new is to do a manual search on Amazon, author by author. It really is ridiculous.

[darryl]

@pwalker8. My problem with Amazon on this point is pretty much the opposite. I don't pre-order. But Amazon sends me notifications of a new book sometimes many months before it is released. And, of course, again when it is released. I could do without the earlier notifications, but I understand there are people such as yourself who do like to pre-order. Clearly Amazon has a glitch here and an opportunity to improve. You can help them by letting support know of your problems.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by darryl

@pwalker8. My problem with Amazon on this point is pretty much the opposite. I don't pre-order. But Amazon sends me notifications of a new book sometimes many months before it is released. And, of course, again when it is released. I could do without the earlier notifications, but I understand there are people such as yourself who do like to pre-order. Clearly Amazon has a glitch here and an opportunity to improve. You can help them by letting support know of your problems.

I have done that. I even got a followup email asking for examples. Nothing changed. I've gotten a couple of emails notifying me of authors that I follow over the years, but it's rare and sporadic. That's not to say that I don't get daily emails from Amazon about books they want to sell me, but usually it's books that either I had already bought from Amazon years ago, or authors I've never heard of and have little interest in.

AuthorAlerts does a pretty good job. I get most of my pre-orders by going to authoralerts and looking at the upcoming list. I'm not sure where they get their information though because the indies rarely get updated.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

In 2014, some 32% of adults in the US owned a dedicated e-reader device. In 2016, that number had fallen to 19%, a very big drop, yet ebook sales and revenue continues to grow. That means more and more people are reading on tablets and phones.

Are you sure that isn't bought an ereader in that specific year, if it is owned then that means 13% of the US population actively destroyed their ereaders, which seems unlikely.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Are you sure that isn't bought an ereader in that specific year, if it is owned then that means 13% of the US population actively destroyed their ereaders, which seems unlikely.

That's what the article said. It doesn't seem so odd to me, many people discard or give away electronics they no longer use, or when filling out the survey they could have been thinking about what they use, rather than some device that's sitting unused in a box or drawer somewhere.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

That's what the article said. It doesn't seem so odd to me, many people discard or give away electronics they no longer use, or when filling out the survey they could have been thinking about what they use, rather than some device that's sitting unused in a box or drawer somewhere.

Yeah, but if you give it away it shouldn't change the national total of people owning a device, seems like a hell of a drop is all.