Will K2PC 1.19 and KFX alter your ebook purchasing habits?

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

There is NO REASON Amazon could not have done these enhances features using KF8. Prove to me what KFX only features could not have been done with KF8 and upgrades to the KF8 renderer?

I agree that it would have been possible for Amazon to add features to their existing formats instead of creating a new one.

They get both a performance improvement and additional lock-in by switching to a compiled format. It is likely that both were factors in the decision to create KFX. I doubt that Amazon will ever announce the reasoning behind their decision.

Added: There are probably other factors involved that we don't know about. It is odd that KF8 was never released for the iOS app. That was the first device to support KFX e-books, even before e-ink kindles.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by jhowell

I agree that it would have been possible for Amazon to add features to their existing formats instead of creating a new one.

They get both a performance improvement and additional lock-in by switching to a compiled format. It is likely that both were factors in the decision to create KFX. I doubt that Amazon will ever announce the reasoning behind their decision.

My guess is lock-in. You want these new features, you HAVE to buy from Amazon to get them. You cannot buy an ePub and convert. You cannot buy direct from BAEN, you have to by BAEN eBooks through us. It's just Amazon's way to make sure people buy from Amazon. That is how I see it.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

My guess is lock-in. You want these new features, you HAVE to buy from Amazon to get them. You cannot buy an ePub and convert. You cannot buy direct from BAEN, you have to by BAEN eBooks through us. It's just Amazon's way to make sure people buy from Amazon. That is how I see it.

Like darryl wrote before, that's a bonus.

The new typographical system cannot be backported to KF8. Instead of relying on external style sheets and hyphenation dictionaries (ePub, KF8), KFX allows typesetters to attach typographical controls or hints directly to text. It's a bit like TrueType fonts which are directions for drawing glyphs (vectors) and hints for making vector sequences look good at different sizes. This cannot be done with KF8 because there are no places to put these hints. If you were to create places to put these hints then you would have a new, different file format.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

My guess is lock-in. You want these new features, you HAVE to buy from Amazon to get them. You cannot buy an ePub and convert. You cannot buy direct from BAEN, you have to by BAEN eBooks through us. It's just Amazon's way to make sure people buy from Amazon. That is how I see it.

Well since at least 95% of people with Kindles bought them for an easy way to get books from Amazon, I still don't see the real concern.
Last time I looked the basic kindles which may or may not support kfx can still be bought new for $79.99. So it would appear that if I want the new features, I would have to buy a higher end kindle to get that particular format.
Can someone please verify the support?

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Well since at least 95% of people with Kindles bought them for an easy way to get books from Amazon, I still don't see the real concern.
Last time I looked the basic kindles which may or may not support kfx can still be bought new for $79.99. So it would appear that if I want the new features, I would have to buy a higher end kindle to get that particular format.
Can someone please verify the support?

The current $80 Kindle is actually an 8th generation device, same as Oasis, so yes it will support KFX with a firmware update.

[copyrite]

Originally Posted by Pajamaman

NVDA (NonVisual Desktop Access) and Kindle for PC 1.19


Will this affect your ebook buying habits? Do you expect to go to vendors other than Amazon to get your books, and if so, what vendors will you use?

No, and, yes, other vendors in addition to Amazon because I already do.

Oh wait... there's also the PW1 and KK that I charge once a month that influence my answer.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by ratinox

The new typographical system cannot be backported to KF8. Instead of relying on external style sheets and hyphenation dictionaries (ePub, KF8), KFX allows typesetters to attach typographical controls or hints directly to text.

The enhanced typesetting features of KFX are handled by the reading device without hints in the KFX file. The kindle devices and apps use a hyphenation dictionary for KFX.

That feature could have been added without any change to the file format. It just would have made things a bit slower.

Originally Posted by ratinox

The current $80 Kindle is actually an 8th generation device, same as Oasis, so yes it will support KFX with a firmware update.

The 8th gen devices (Oasis and basic kindle) shipped with KFX support in their initial firmware. No update required.

All previous generations shipped without it and had it added in later updates. Firmware version 5.6.5 or later supports KFX.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by jhowell

The enhanced typesetting features of KFX are handled by the reading device without hints in the KFX file. The kindle devices and apps use a hyphenation dictionary for KFX.

Okay, then I misinterpreted what KFX is doing -- and the "enhanced" aspect of it isn't all that much of an enhancement after all.

That feature could have been added without any change to the file format. It just would have made things a bit slower.

It would cause compatibility problems. Create a file in Word or Excel and try opening it in a previous version. You get errors because features used in the document which are saved in the file aren't supported by the earlier versions of the software. Amazon would have the same kinds of compatibility problems with features added to KF8 on devices with software predating those changes. That's a bad UX for appliances like Kindles.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Binary vs. non-binary is not the issue here. The issue is that ADE handles ePub and gives some of these features without the need to have some compiled format. There is NO REASON Amazon could not have done these enhances features using KF8. Prove to me what KFX only features could not have been done with KF8 and upgrades to the KF8 renderer?

I think you are missing the point here. I am not claiming that Amazon could not have added these features to kf8. What I am saying is that Amazon chose not to do this. The advantage of the compiled format is that it performs better and uses less resources on the Kindles, which have quite limited resources. This can be very important as new features/complexities are added. You could be correct that Amazon chose this format purely for lock-in, but at best I think this waa only one factor. Personally I don't think so. I think the advantages of a compiled format combined with Amazon's future plans may well have been the overriding factor in the decision. I think you vastly overestimate Amazon's desire for 100% lock-in, a goal which is essentially not achievable. I think there are so few people who care about drm or lock-in that they are not of great concern to Amazon.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ratinox

It would cause compatibility problems. Create a file in Word or Excel and try opening it in a previous version. You get errors because features used in the document which are saved in the file aren't supported by the earlier versions of the software. Amazon would have the same kinds of compatibility problems with features added to KF8 on devices with software predating those changes. That's a bad UX for appliances like Kindles.

You still don't get it. You would not need to add any code to KF8. These features would be handled in the program used to render KF8. ADE does it without ever needing to change the ePub. Amazon could have done the same with KF8 via the renderer. There would be no backwards compatibility issues.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by darryl

I think you are missing the point here. I am not claiming that Amazon could not have added these features to kf8. What I am saying is that Amazon chose not to do this. The advantage of the compiled format is that it performs better and uses less resources on the Kindles, which have quite limited resources. This can be very important as new features/complexities are added. You could be correct that Amazon chose this format purely for lock-in, but at best I think this waa only one factor. Personally I don't think so. I think the advantages of a compiled format combined with Amazon's future plans may well have been the overriding factor in the decision. I think you vastly overestimate Amazon's desire for 100% lock-in, a goal which is essentially not achievable. I think there are so few people who care about drm or lock-in that they are not of great concern to Amazon.

I don't think adding enhanced features to the KF8 renderer would have slowed it down such that people would complain. I think they would welcome having most eBooks from Amazon support the enhanced typesetting.

The issue here is that Amazon could have given some or all of the new features to more Kindles. It seems that KFX takes more out of a Kindle given that some Kindles support KF8 and not KFX. So I do think it would have been better for more people to have the KF8 renderer do the work.

I just realized something I left out. Not only is KFX a lock-in, it's also to try to get more to buy a new Kindle just to get the new typesetting. Amazon is not doing what's best for customers but is instead doing what Amazon feels is best for Amazon customers be dammed.

[Josieb1]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Amazon is not doing what's best for customers but is instead doing what Amazon feels is best for Amazon customers be dammed.

I hate to be cynical but isn't that what Amazon always does.

Regardless of how "good" anyone finds there customer service Amazon is just a large corporation who want to make money. They don't give a damm about anyone except the bottom line.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I don't think adding enhanced features to the KF8 renderer would have slowed it down such that people would complain. I think they would welcome having most eBooks from Amazon support the enhanced typesetting.

The issue here is that Amazon could have given some or all of the new features to more Kindles. It seems that KFX takes more out of a Kindle given that some Kindles support KF8 and not KFX. So I do think it would have been better for more people to have the KF8 renderer do the work.

I just realized something I left out. Not only is KFX a lock-in, it's also to try to get more to buy a new Kindle just to get the new typesetting. Amazon is not doing what's best for customers but is instead doing what Amazon feels is best for Amazon customers be dammed.

I must answer this. If a business doesn't do what is best for the business first, there will be no customers.
Now after doing a little more research 95% of Kindle customers do not feel damned. They want to buy a book, read said book and the enhancements don't really matter to them.

Here is the big thing. Less than 5% of people that read books read more than 1 book a month.
The other 95% don't give a crap as long as the book is readable.
Can they read the book immediately on the device they bought. If yes, then all is good.

Here is the big thing, Amazon finally gave the 1% the hyphenation they wanted.
They gave you what you wanted, so now instead of being appreciative, you now complain about the way they did it.

Thanks a million for nothing. Now it will many years before they improve anything else.
Because it looks like, they won't be happy if we spend time and money to give them what they think they want, so now they know not to waste the time and money.

Oh and my estimate of how many don't care may be way low.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Oh and my estimate of how many don't care may be way low.

May be way low. May be way high. That's what happens when you pull numbers out of thin air

(Not that I disagree with the direction of your post. You're just better off not making up numbers to support opinions.)

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You still don't get it. You would not need to add any code to KF8. These features would be handled in the program used to render KF8. ADE does it without ever needing to change the ePub. Amazon could have done the same with KF8 via the renderer. There would be no backwards compatibility issues.

No, I get it, but I'm not sure you do. Some of the KFX features do include new things added to book files. Take the JXR image format. Backporting JXR support to KF8 would mean books, magazines, comics, newspapers, manga using JXR images would break on devices that don't have recent (enough) software. That's a huge backwards compatibility issue. At least with a new file format it's obvious to customers if something isn't supported on a particular device like when KF8 was exclusively for tablets.

Personally? I have to agree with Cinisajoy. The "nerd 1%" is never satisfied. "We" demanded full-powered graphics from high-end gaming notebooks for years. When nVidia delivered it with the GTX 10 series last year "we" bitched about how the new cards needed too much power and weren't backwards compatible with older notebooks. SSDD.