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Old 07-13-2014, 01:02 PM   #136
latepaul
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Originally Posted by cybmole View Post
Netflix is a great example of good branding and legal access from anywhere. They also know that lots of their cusomers use geo-location fakery and they really don't care. so I can flip between netflix UK, netflix USA, and netflix-anywhere-else with a couple of mouse clicks.
Netflix don't care because they're are getting paid either way. However the rights holders care. They care because the content they provide is tied to rights deals that are geographic in nature. You can argue that that model is out of date but it's still the case. So the company with the rights to distribute a particular movie in the UK may be entirely different to the one in the US. It may ultimately be part of the same conglomerate, but not necessarily.

So Netflix has to at least pretend to care in order to sign the deals in the first place.

It's a bit like how the hardware manufacturers of DVD players used to have to pretend that they weren't building multi-region players whilst hiding the switch within an "engineering menu". They get paid either way once someone buys the player, but in order to build the player in the first place they had to sign up to be part of the DVDCA which involved agreeing to enforce region codes. In fact technically they still shouldn't be doing this but no-one's going to enforce the rules when DVD drm has been so thoroughly defeated and the market has largely moved on anyway.
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Old 07-13-2014, 01:12 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Barcey View Post
When you purchase a ticket for a specific venue it is a different expectation then when you purchase a license to receive content via the world wide web. If you have an internet connection you expect to be able to access the content regardless of what country you are in.
Not if the terms and conditions of the service tell you otherwise. Eg, Amazon's video streaming service here in the UK specifically states:

Quote:
Note:

Due to licensing agreements, you must be located in the United Kingdom or Channel Islands (with a U.K. billing address and payment method) to stream Prime titles.
That's stated in black and white right there on the Amazon site:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/cus...deId=201423000

Nobody can sign up for the service and then claim that they expected to be able to access the service from a different country.
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Old 07-13-2014, 01:35 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Not if the terms and conditions of the service tell you otherwise. Eg, Amazon's video streaming service here in the UK specifically states:



That's stated in black and white right there on the Amazon site:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/cus...deId=201423000

Nobody can sign up for the service and then claim that they expected to be able to access the service from a different country.

I recently watched the movie 'Terms and Conditions May Apply'. I believe the statistic they quoted was that if the average person actually read all the terms and conditions they agree to on the click through agreements it would take them an average of 18 hours a week. What percentage of the population do you believe actually read and understand everything in those agreements? If you do please tell me how many hours a week you spend reading them? I'm curious how accurate the statistic is.
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Old 07-13-2014, 01:37 PM   #139
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What generates a lot of the heat here in this discussion is the occasional but egregious failure to spot that "immoral" and "illegal" aren't terms that can be interchanged.

Add to that the feeling that the US is the country with the most aggressive attitude to preserving what it defines as its own intellectual property (a question of law, its own, naturally), and a long history of ignoring the rights of authors from other countries (obviously only a moral issue to the US citizens of the time).

Perhaps someone has already written the book detailing the problems encountered by nineteenth-century authors such as Dickens and Trollope, who found their works mercilessly pirated in the US. Or about twentieth-century ones such as Tolkien.

Of course two wrongs don't make a right (morally or legally). But they might influence just how immoral you might think certain kinds of illegal behaviour actually are.
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Old 07-13-2014, 02:05 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by AlexBell View Post
This is mainly about films, but may apply to ebooks also.

http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...es?CMP=ema_632
More by Lexi...

http://www.lexi-alexander.com/blog/2...lease-stand-up

...who, by the way, is in the business. Frankly, I think she has a point. Big Entertainment has bribed and lobbied for unusual protections for their product for decades. The change in the US laws since WW2 are particularly pronounced. Their co-conspirators -- Government -- exempts itself (libraries and schools) from the regulations and their partners -- Business and Industry -- get sweetheart deals and licenses. This leaves the individual to bear the brunt of the regulation -- regulation so unreasonable and unenforceable that something called Fair Use was created.

Big Entertainment wants to define their product as both a gas and a solid. When consumers want to format shift something they compensated Big Industry for, they are told that is illegal and a new copy must be purchased. When they want to loan the product they purchased to a friend, they are told the item is licensed and you cannot loan it to a friend. If the physical media is damaged or obsolete, the seller of the license has no obligation to make amends or address the problem.

DRM causes great inconvenience for the consumer, little protection for Big Entertainment, and unnecessary expense for both.

A consumer's only recourse is to choose not to purchase the products altogether. I recommend everyone take great pains to minimize their patronage to these Barons of Entertainment. Install an antenna, share books, and buy your movies out of the bargain bin.

Last edited by wizwor; 07-13-2014 at 02:07 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 07-13-2014, 02:09 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Barcey View Post
I recently watched the movie 'Terms and Conditions May Apply'. I believe the statistic they quoted was that if the average person actually read all the terms and conditions they agree to on the click through agreements it would take them an average of 18 hours a week. What percentage of the population do you believe actually read and understand everything in those agreements? If you do please tell me how many hours a week you spend reading them? I'm curious how accurate the statistic is.
Barcey - I forget how exactly it was presented to me when I signed up for the service, but the fact that it was a UK-only service was made obvious, which is the reason I knew about it.

Seriously, people have to take some responsibility for their own actions, and know what it is they're signing up for. Anyone can find this stuff out if they bother to look.
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Old 07-13-2014, 02:26 PM   #142
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If the two previous situations are legal, then what is the moral difference between someone recording something for the author of the original article and sending it to her, and her downloading that content from a website? Remember we aren't talking about her downloading content that she hasn't paid for. If that is the question, then I agree that it would be wrong.
What about when the content isn't available for purchase except on the secondary market--e.g., a out-of-print VHS or cassette tape? Buying it used (assuming you have the equipment needed to play it) and format-shifting doesn't benefit the creator one bit. And while searching for a copy, you see that someone has already format-shifted and uploaded the material, and it's available for the taking. Still wrong?
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Old 07-13-2014, 03:02 PM   #143
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@ Arucaria: Can a failure to spot that the terms "immoral" and "illegal" are not, (at least not always, but sometimes they are, surely), interchangable, be really thought of as egregious? The terms, of course, have different meanings, but that wasn't the point being claimed.
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Old 07-13-2014, 03:31 PM   #144
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What about when the content isn't available for purchase except on the secondary market--e.g., a out-of-print VHS or cassette tape? Buying it used (assuming you have the equipment needed to play it) and format-shifting doesn't benefit the creator one bit. And while searching for a copy, you see that someone has already format-shifted and uploaded the material, and it's available for the taking. Still wrong?
In the US, there is something called first sales doctrine, which says that the copyright owner only controls the first sale, the purchaser has the legal right to sell it to someone else if they wish as long as they don't make a copy. My previous example is freely available content over the air waves. A somewhat different situation than a work that was sold, but now is no longer available.

My personally feeling is that once a work is not made available to the public, then the copyright owner is violating the spirit of the copyright law, i.e. is longer providing public good. That opinion and five bucks will buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks!
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Old 07-13-2014, 03:34 PM   #145
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Not if the terms and conditions of the service tell you otherwise. Eg, Amazon's video streaming service here in the UK specifically states:



That's stated in black and white right there on the Amazon site:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/cus...deId=201423000

Nobody can sign up for the service and then claim that they expected to be able to access the service from a different country.
Terms and conditions is a very grey area when it comes to contract law. Company assert all sorts of things in terms and conditions, some of which is not legally binding.
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Old 07-13-2014, 04:09 PM   #146
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Terms and conditions is a very grey area when it comes to contract law. Company assert all sorts of things in terms and conditions, some of which is not legally binding.
Are you suggesting that the consumer has no responsibility to ensue that a product or service they're purchasing meets their requirements? I didn't know where that page I quoted was on the Amazon UK site, but it took me 30 seconds at most to find it. ("Help", "Amazon Instant Video", "About Amazon Instant Video".) If I can find it, then so can anyone else.

I honestly don't think that being so lazy that you can't be bothered to find out what the limitations of the service you're buying are is a legitimate excuse for piracy.
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Old 07-13-2014, 05:03 PM   #147
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Luckily for them it is still legal for me to buy DVDFAB's excellent dvd copying software, despite USA.s best attempts to suppress the web site
I remember visiting a nocdkey site once so I could let my young kids play purchased games without handling the media. On the support page there was a list of free and commercial DRM removal products. For those copy programs with their own copy protection, the web site posted cracks. I thought that was ironic.
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Old 07-13-2014, 07:19 PM   #148
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Are you suggesting that the consumer has no responsibility to ensue that a product or service they're purchasing meets their requirements? I didn't know where that page I quoted was on the Amazon UK site, but it took me 30 seconds at most to find it. ("Help", "Amazon Instant Video", "About Amazon Instant Video".) If I can find it, then so can anyone else.

I honestly don't think that being so lazy that you can't be bothered to find out what the limitations of the service you're buying are is a legitimate excuse for piracy.
I'm suggesting that just because someone says something is so, doesn't make it so. I can sell you a car and bury a clause in the contract saying that you can't drive it faster than then posted speed limit. That doesn't make that clause legally enforceable. Nor does it mean that you are breaking the law, even if the clause is enforceable. Isn't that your gold standard for if something is right or wrong? If it's legal where you happen to be at the moment?
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Old 07-13-2014, 07:25 PM   #149
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Once again, what the original article is saying is that in order to accomplish a certain task, i.e. see German content in the US, she has to resort to using the so called pirate sites at times. Very different that what you are saying.
I am saying (perhaps implying or trying to say) that it is not nor ever has been an inalienable right to watch a TV show from a different region/country and that for most of my life it was difficult or impossible to do so. People in Canada watched what was shown by Canadian stations, and people in Mexico watched what was shown on Mexican stations.

French Canadian people living outside Quebec in Canada could not see any French shows. It was extremely rare that they were broadcast or played in cinemas outside of Quebec. There were no DVDs or VHS etc. All reel to reel and private rental was extremely difficult and expensive.

Now we can often watch things at our convenience and there is certainly a lot to watch available. And we can often manage to buy or view things that are not broadcast in our countries.

As many have said, we can buy the media and get a player that will play from any region, no opinion really on the legality or morality of this, we all know whether we personally feel a bit guilty or not, although IMO only those that think it is wrong deep down, loudly protest their innocence and how they were forced to pirate something like it was on the same level as stealing food to feed their starving children. Sorry but I am just not that naive.

Helen
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Old 07-13-2014, 07:53 PM   #150
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Seriously, people have to take some responsibility for their own actions, and know what it is they're signing up for. Anyone can find this stuff out if they bother to look.
That statement can be applied to pretty much everything in life.
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